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Thread: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

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    High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    After months of trying things, our pool maintenance people have not been able to correct our pool problems, so as they say, if you want something done properly...

    First off, our pool:

    Pool volume: 16,000 US gallons
    Type of filter: Cartridge
    Type of pool: In ground
    Pool surface: Plaster / cement
    Pump size & flow rate: 420sq.ft. / 150gpm
    Date of pool build / install: Unknown. At least 3 years old

    A week ago, the maintenance service installed a Pentair Water Model 300 Offline Chlorine / Bromide Feeder was recently installed onto pressure side of pump. This was an attempt to avoid the zero TC during the weekly check.

    Second, test results from this morning:

    FC=0, CC=0.5, pH=7.9, TA=120, CH=450, CYA=45, Borates unknown, total alkalinity=120, acid demand=2, copper=0, iron=0, total dissolved solids=3000, phosphates=100.

    Note the high TDS, pH, phosphates and CH. There is no FC. We are recovering from algae. Still traces remaining.

    Here's the background. It all started one day with a big algae problem. We are in California. It is sunny with Summer temps mid 80's. The pool hovers at mid 80's. Sometimes I lift the temp to 90. We have solar but I have a clear pool cover that does the job easily. One day after a warm period, I took the pool cover off and there was a lot of algae. The pool guy (I'll call him dude#1) comes once a week, just tests for chlorine and pH and invariably adds a gallon of liquid chlorine. He pretty much adds a gallon every week. He shocked the pool once, the algae mostly went away (We also scrubbed the pool), but he reported every week that the chlorine was zero. He also added acid once, saying the chlorine problem was related to cyanuric acid. After 2 gallons of chlorine didn't do it, finally his boss turned up (dude#2) and showed me an off the scale phosphate reading, which he treated with some stuff that he said bonded to the phosphate. That turned the pool blue for a few days but did clean up the algae. Also, he installed an offline chlorinator. After a week, dude#1 turned up as usual and said again, zero chlorine. Another gallon added.

    I don't know much about pools, but it seemed to me these guys are treating the symptom. So I took a water sample to the local pool shop this morning, the results of which I have posted here. They thought TDS was the chlorine problem and that I needed to drain the pool. But I went online and read this article about TDS (http://ppoa.org/pdfs/What%20is%20the%20 ... Solids.pdf). Is this really the root of the problem? I *suspect* the water may be old. We have been here 3 years and the previous occupant of 15 years never used the pool so I am trying to find out from them when the pool water was last changed. So it is possible over time that salt has accumulated. But according to this article, the liquid chlorine can add to that problem, yet that on its own should not be the problem of zero chlorine. Plus we have the offline chlorinator. Dude#1 thinks the pump is not circulating enough water. I asked him what the gauge should read. He said 19psi. Well, it's reading 18 or 22 with the solar on. It is worth mentioning that I don't think dude#2 has come back yet to clean out the cartridge that should contain the algae. Finally, I run the filter 5 hours a day. The pool shop says I should run it for 8. That *sounds* like a lot (It cetainly is expensive), but what is the norm?

    The pool guys have no idea why we have zero FC each week, even with the chlorinator. Is it really the TDS? Or do the other high readings point to another cause?
    40 year old, 16,000g, plaster, in ground pool with 150gpm cartridge filter and 1.5hp pump.

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    First of all, welcome to TFP! We appreciate the thorough explanation, and sharing your levels.

    The first piece of advice I would offer is - get your own test kit and take control of the pool yourself. The most recommend kits here are the TF-100 and Taylor K-2006.
    While you are waiting for your test kit to arrive, read through Pool School a couple times (at least the shocking article and ABCs of Pool Chemistry)

    Once you get through those articles, you will quickly understand that you are wasting time and energy on dude#1&2..and the pool store. Trust your own test results more than anyone else.

    As for TDS and Phosphates..you really don't need to worry about those. If you maintain proper chemistry levels, neither 3k TDS or 100 phosphates will be an issue for you.

    You should add your pool/equipment specs to your signature box so that you don't have to type it every time

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    What he said. ^
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    As I pay rent and the owner pays for the pool service, I may be limited in what I can do about these two guys, but I am looking into that.

    Leslie's Pool Supplies up the road does monthly water testing for free, so I am going to show the pool guys the printout, plus what I have learned here and listen to their response.

    I should also mention I have had to buy a hydrochloric gel to get the calcium off the sides of the pool, which is very time consuming. I have since found out today that my test results show why I am getting this buildup.

    BTW, I ran my numbers into "The Pool Calculator" with the desired settings from that site and this is what it showed I needed to do to get my levels back to where they needed to be:

    FC: Add 133oz bleach
    pH: Add 22oz of 31.45% Muriatic acid
    TA: Reduce pH then aerate
    CH: Replace 42% of the water (Yikes!)
    CYA: Replace 11% of the water
    Scaling likely with 90 degree water
    CSI: Problems likely

    So by that recommendation, To fix the calcium problem I need to drain half the pool then to fix the chlorine and pH problems, add chlorine and acid.

    I will take any action for the moment until I show the pool guys what I find out, since through my rent I am effectively paying them to fix what really is their job. If all dude#1 is doing is measuring FC and pH, he isn't really seeing the whole problem.
    40 year old, 16,000g, plaster, in ground pool with 150gpm cartridge filter and 1.5hp pump.

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Back again. A week later, about 1/2 the water was drained from the pool. The readings after refilling were:

    FC=0, CC=0, pH=7.6, TA=110, CH=300, CYA=60, Borates unknown, total alkalinity=110, total dissolved solids=1500, phosphates=500.

    So the 50% refill fixed the high TDS, calcium and pH as well as improving the alkalinity, but the phosphates went really high from 100 to 500. I wondered why the phosphates would go so high, if anyone has a suggestion.

    Then the pool man came back and to fix the zero chlorine, added 6 tablets to the external inline chlorinator, plus his usual gallon of liquid chlorine and has since repeated this process each week. Also, the cartidges in the filter have been cleaned out, which were apparently clogged and the water flow I noticed has improved.

    He is coming again this morning, so I took another sample and went to the pool store. The readings are currently:

    FC=3, CC=3, pH=7.5, TA=90, CH=300, CYA=50, Borates unknown, total alkalinity=90, total dissolved solids=2200, phosphates=300.

    The chlorine level is now good, but what worries me is the steadily increasing TDS. At this rate, we are going to be back where we were in no time. I am told by the pool store that continually adding a lot of chlorine and tablets will keep increasing the TDS. Is this correct? If so, I have a bozo who's solution to any problem is just to add more chlorine. Plus there is the phosphates that needs to come down. I will be seeing him this morning if anyone has a suggestion. The pool calculator recommends 1/4 gallon bleach, 38oz baking soda and 13% water change for ideal TroubleFreePool.com levels.

    Pool color looking good. No algae.
    40 year old, 16,000g, plaster, in ground pool with 150gpm cartridge filter and 1.5hp pump.

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    There are ways to control your CH issue without replacing water. You may have no choice if your tap water is hard, so I suggest you test tap water and make sure you aren't chasing your tail before you go any farther.

    Your chlorine level is NOT good. CC of 3 is an issue. Are you sure you did not mean TC of 3? Do you have a TC number? Is it 6? A CC of 3 usually indicates organics in the pool, possibly algae.

    DO NOT worry about TDS or phosphates. Adding chlorine and tablets will increase TDS, but again it's not a concern.

    Adding those tablets is going to drive your CYA up. CYA of 50 is already too high for a non-saltwater pool.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Just looking at the CYA numbers should tell you that you can not rely on the pool store testing.

    It was 60ppm, then he add tablets (which contain more CYA), then it was retested at 50ppm ??? That is not possible.

    Continued use of tablets will only lead to more problems. Unfortunately, you are kind of stuck being a renter. Have you discussed with the owner you taking over control of the pool and him "paying" you instead of the pool company? Maybe get the owner, to lower the rent my 1/2 of what they pay the pool company. At least then you would have a nice pool to use.

    We can not really provide good advice based on inconsistent test results and it sounds like the pool company will do what they want anyway.

    And a reminder: Phosphates are meaningless, if you maintain the correct FC level. Also ignore the TDS ... it is just a sum of a bunch of other things in the water. Better to focus on the CH and CYA separately.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    The answers given above still stand, so I'll repeat them.

    Phosphates don't matter at all in a properly chlorinated pool. The TDS number doesn't matter either. Looks to me that except for chlorine (FC and CC), all of your numbers look good.

    As to your original question,
    Quote Originally Posted by simon
    The pool guys have no idea why we have zero FC each week, even with the chlorinator.
    the answer is very simple. FC is consumable, and starts getting used up the moment it gets put in the pool. FC is lost to either sunlight/UV rays or by doing it's job sanitizing organics/oxidizing other waste.

    So, assuming each puck is a trichlor puck weighing 7 oz, the pucks plus gallon of liquid chlorine means they are adding about 25 ppm of FC once per week (less if the pucks are dichlor). 25/3 7 is about 3.5ppm lost per day. This still within the realm of normal for a clean pool. If your pool has anything in it (clear doesn't necessarily mean clean), your consumption could be higher. EDIT - missed the CCs before. You most certainly have something in it, so your consumption will be much higher.

    In short, the correct way to add chlorine is every day to every other day, not just once per week.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Hello,

    TDS and phospates are not your problem. Many here have maintained pools with 2000+ phospate readings and TDS can be just salt in your water from weekly chlorination.

    The pool needs to be shocked. The fact that your CC reading is 3ppm would indicate you have organics consuming chlorine. Your CYA is already 60ppm, so if the PB is adding pucks, ask him to stop or take them out yourself and chlorinate with bleach.

    Time to perform the overnight chlorine loss test and if it confirms you are losing chlorine overnight, follow the how to shock your pool article in pool school. (button on top right of this page)
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Okay, I will address the 4 responses to make sure I have the numbers correct.

    - TFP Expert, maybe I have confused the acronyms so I will read straight from the pool store's printout. Free Available Chlorine (FAC) = 3 and Total Available Chlorine (TAC) = 3. According the the pool store, the correct ranges for FAC are 1-4 and TAC 0.2 difference. Correct? I don't have a CC number. Perhaps I mistakenly thought CC was TAC. Sounds like I am wrong. But do the FAC and TAC readings look good? With CYA of 50, the pool store says 50-99 is in range. Is 50 really too high?

    - jblizzle, I can confirm that the CYA reading of 60 was taken right after the water was 50% replaced, before adding chemicals and that the reading of 50 was taken by me yesterday, 3 weeks later, again before the pool guy came today. He did not add any bleach today, seeing the reading was good. He just added another 4 tablets to the chlorinator.

    I have just written to the owner recommending we ditch the current pool company. In addition to the chemical problem, I have noticed there is some kind of leak in the system because now the pool motor takes nearly 5 minutes to start pumping water. It doesn't seem to bother the pool guy. To me I can see a burnt out impeller and more maintenance coming the owner's way. If it were my pool I would have ditched these guys ages ago and started testing myself.
    40 year old, 16,000g, plaster, in ground pool with 150gpm cartridge filter and 1.5hp pump.

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Oh I get it. FC + CC = TC. So if FC = 3 and TC is 3, my actual CC is 0. Sorry about the mispost.
    40 year old, 16,000g, plaster, in ground pool with 150gpm cartridge filter and 1.5hp pump.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    My point still stands ... CYA of 50ppm is about as high as you want to be. If you keep using tablets, it will keep going up and make clearing the pool more difficult.

    How much of Pool School have you read? ... that will help you understand the chemistry and terminology
    What test kit did you use?
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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  13. Back To Top    #13

    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    I am not using anything. It is all the pool service. It looks like if is adding 4 tablets. A week. I am testing the water at a pool store. If I could take over the maintenance myself I would because it couldn't be any worse than the current guy. Renters limitation
    40 year old, 16,000g, plaster, in ground pool with 150gpm cartridge filter and 1.5hp pump.

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Ignore what the pool store tells you are acceptable ranges. They don't take CYA into account when they give you the range you should be in. Also, they don't consider the effect of CYA on your FC, in my opinion because they want to sell you tablets that drive up your CYA and don't want a CYA of 50+ showing up as anything bad. You don't have to lower CYA since you are only at 50, but those tablets are going to raise it quickly. You should stop the use of them immediately.

    There is a chart you can use in pool school.
    pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock
    As you see, your target FC with CYA of 50 is 6ppm, not 3. At 3, you are below the minimum and risk allowing algae to take over your pool.

    I apologize if you already said, I scanned quickly but didn't see it, is your pool water clear? In your first post you mentioned there were still traces of algae, is this still the case?
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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    FAC+CC=TAC or FC+CC=TC which is the same as Free Chlorine+Combined Chlorine= Total Chlorine. You have a TC level of 3, CC level of 0 and TC level 3 according to the pool store. You might not have any problems with your water right now but you are close to having problems in the near future. Take the time to read Pool School and you will learn the basics of pool water chemistry very quickly.

    Most if not all of your water problems are/have been related to your FC/CYA ratio that your pool has been subject to. Pool stores don't prescribe to the recommended FC/CYA ratios promoted here at TFP because they would rather sell you magic chemicals to treat phosphates, TDS, and what have you. You can find the correct FC level for your pool in Pool School in the FC/CYA chart. To let you know with a CYA level of 50, your chlorine should never fall below 4 and you should target 6 at all times. When the FC drops below 4 algae can get started and the chlorine can not keep up with the algae. This explains why your pool was consuming all the chlorine that was being added. You can have a clear pool and still have algae.

    The testing that you have had seems to fall right in-line with pool store testing. In your first post the CYA was listed at 45 then the pool was 1/2 drained and your CYA is now at 50. This is the perfect example of pool store testing for CYA. Without a proper test kit you will be at the mercy of innaccurate test results.

    There have been other posts replying already but I'll post anyways just to give you one more opinon.
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  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    TFP expert, water is now clear.

    I will read up on CYA and the relationship to FC.

    I stood by and watched the pool guy this morning. He only tests FC and pH. Seeing 3 and 7.5 respectively, he said "Everything is good", added 4 big tablets to the chlorinator and left.

    You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

    Ping, "This is the perfect example of pool store testing for CYA. Without a proper test kit you will be at the mercy of innaccurate test results." I actually assumed pool store testing would be decent. No?
    40 year old, 16,000g, plaster, in ground pool with 150gpm cartridge filter and 1.5hp pump.

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Glad u got things working out.......

    I hate CYA effects, I hate other test kit other than Taylor of the TP-100..........I love the TP-100.....hellz yeah.
    If u don't use the good FAS-DPD type test kit for CL, u are looking for trouble . I been where you are in 2007.
    If u wan't really nice water, testing twice a day for CL is a must. This way u can keep low level but stable CL.

    I am where you are today in 2007, I mean pool store expert ********z wasting 1 year of my time.
    This forum is the MOST HONEST & THE BEST ONE in the world as far as how to achieve good pool water..and at low cost too

    See my routine with new water and algae treatment :
    allright-tpf-alumni-changing-pool-water-in-real-time-t51352.html
    It will be clean by this Saturday and 100% back to its sparkling glory by Sunday for sure.......no drama
    This is a 4 meter /12 feet deep pool 60% of its entire length and to bring clarity is no easy task.
    If I were to be a member here before I have a pool, my plumbing and all would be different and it will save me time in achieving filtration efficiency and money in electric bill. But as with most members here, we come because we are in TROUBLE...

    Now, if you feel assisted by TPF, may I suggest you being a LifeTime Supporter.

    Have fun swimming in ur clean pool............
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
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  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    You can call me Robbie.

    You are right about the monkeys, and that literally made me laugh out loud.

    Pool stores are notorious for hiring minimum wage teenagers (at least around me) who have never owned a pool, and might have gotten a 5 minute instruction on how to use the test stuff. And, they don't care as much about your pool as you do. You will take the time to ensure accuracy. CYA is where they are almost always incorrect.
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  19. Back To Top    #19
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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    I hate CYA effects, I hate other test kit other than Taylor of the TP-100..........I love the TP-100.....hellz yeah.
    Just a correction ... the test kit is the TF-100, sold by tftestkits.net which uses Taylor reagents, but is not a Taylor kit. The Taylor kit that is most similar is the K-2006 ... see link in my sig for a comparison ... the TF-100 is a better value.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: High TDS, pH, phosphates, CH, no FC and algae present...

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle
    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    I hate CYA effects, I hate other test kit other than Taylor of the TP-100..........I love the TP-100.....hellz yeah.
    Just a correction ... the test kit is the TF-100, sold by tftestkits.net which uses Taylor reagents, but is not a Taylor kit. The Taylor kit that is most similar is the K-2006 ... see link in my sig for a comparison ... the TF-100 is a better value.
    Roger that...........thanks Jason, me been a loyal user of TF-100 ( sorry not TP-100 ).

    BTW, are you Jason Lion ? Or another Jason ?

    .
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
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