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Thread: Pump Bonding Question

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    Pump Bonding Question

    I have read everything about bonding and have a real good grasp of what needs to be done, but.... (there is always a but)

    I have a Doughboy pump and it is enclosed 100% in a plastic housing. How do I bond that? It is already grounded via the normal electricity ( I know bond and ground are separate), I just can figure out how or if I need to bond the pump???

    I attached some pics to show the housing, can get a closer pic, if needed....
    16X24 Oval Doughboy
    10,000 Gallons~
    Pentair Dynamo .75/1.0 HP pump
    16" Pooline D-400 Sand Filter w/ 6-way valve

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    Most of the Doughboy pumps are double insulated, which eliminates the need to bond the pump.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    That is what I thought about my pump being double insulated, so if that is the case, it is not required to be bonded then?

    Also, a follow up question. You can see in picture that I have a Chlorine pump (small black box on post), there is no lug on that either, so I assume it is not required to be bonded also???
    16X24 Oval Doughboy
    10,000 Gallons~
    Pentair Dynamo .75/1.0 HP pump
    16" Pooline D-400 Sand Filter w/ 6-way valve

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    Most chemical pumps are not considered to be in contact with the water, and thus don't get bonded.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    The NEC has provisions in it for double insulated devices on pools. I don't have my code book with me this week so I can not speak to the exact sub section. However, does the motor specificaly spell it out as being double insulated? Also, the pump motor is still most likely a metak housed shell under that decorative cover. If you take that cover off and look at the end of the motor where the wiring connects you may see a bonding lug. It will ultimatly be up to your inspector weather this needs to be bonded or not. If the chlorinator does not have any metal components then it does not have to be bonded.
    Unknown make 18' above ground (bought used in 1999) Sparco sand filter. Hayward 100,000 BTu heater. 2 speed pump

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    OK, and since we are on the topic of bonding, is there a way to measure how many volts are running through the ground (earth) with a volt meter? Same goes for the pool water, is there a way to test voltage there also.

    and if there is, I am guessing it would be different voltages depending on the depth tested in the earth. Our electrical is all run underground in our area, was just kinda curious as to what my be lurking under there now.
    16X24 Oval Doughboy
    10,000 Gallons~
    Pentair Dynamo .75/1.0 HP pump
    16" Pooline D-400 Sand Filter w/ 6-way valve

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    Quote Originally Posted by danpik
    The NEC has provisions in it for double insulated devices on pools. I don't have my code book with me this week so I can not speak to the exact sub section. However, does the motor specificaly spell it out as being double insulated? Also, the pump motor is still most likely a metak housed shell under that decorative cover. If you take that cover off and look at the end of the motor where the wiring connects you may see a bonding lug. It will ultimatly be up to your inspector weather this needs to be bonded or not. If the chlorinator does not have any metal components then it does not have to be bonded.
    I just looked at my manual and it does specifically state that it IS double insulated:

    ELECTRICAL SOURCE
    FOR MODELS 0-3045-200, 0-3046-200, 0-3047-200,
    0-3048-200 (25Ft. Cord)
    Your pump is supplied with a 25 foot, 3-wire electrical
    cord and a 3-pronged plug. [b]The pump is double insu-
    lated and grounded
    .
    [/b] The pump electrical cord must be
    connected to a grounded, 3-wire, 115 VAC electrical
    receptacle.
    The pump should be connected to a receptalce on a
    dedicated circuit protected by a 20 AMP circuit breaker.
    DO NOT use a grounding adaptor.
    The receptacle must be protected by a Ground Fault
    Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) in accordance with Article 680-
    31 of the National Electrical Code (NEC), (Section 68-
    204 of the Canadian Electrical Code (CSA) and local
    codes or ordinances. For runs greater than 25 feet,
    consult your local licensed electrical contractor.

    I will have to take the housing off again to confirm, but if memory serves me right, it did not have a lug.



    As far as the chlorine pump goes, it is a plastic housing, but the internals have metal, (pump, fan blade). I would not have a clue as to how a lug could be attached to that, since it is packed tightly into the plastic housing.
    16X24 Oval Doughboy
    10,000 Gallons~
    Pentair Dynamo .75/1.0 HP pump
    16" Pooline D-400 Sand Filter w/ 6-way valve

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1)
    through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper
    conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than
    8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified
    corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded
    parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or
    larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce
    voltage gradients in the pool area shall not be required to be
    extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment,
    or electrodes.
    (6) Electrical Equipment.
    Metal parts of electrical equipment
    associated with the pool water circulating system,
    including pump motors and metal parts of equipment associated
    with pool covers, including electric motors, shall be
    bonded.
    Exception: Metal parts of listed equipment incorporating
    an approved system of double insulation shall not be
    bonded.

    (a) Double-Insulated Water Pump Motors. Where a
    double-insulated water pump motor is installed under the
    provisions of this rule, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor of
    sufficient length to make a bonding connection to a replacement
    motor shall be extended from the bonding grid to an
    accessible point in the vicinity of the pool pump motor.
    Where there is no connection between the swimming pool
    bonding grid and the equipment grounding system for the
    premises, this bonding conductor shall be connected to the
    equipment grounding conductor of the motor circuit.

    (b) Pool Water Heaters. For pool water heaters rated
    at more than 50 amperes and having specific instructions
    regarding bonding and grounding, only those parts designated
    to be bonded shall be bonded and only those parts
    designated to be grounded shall be grounded.
    16X24 Oval Doughboy
    10,000 Gallons~
    Pentair Dynamo .75/1.0 HP pump
    16" Pooline D-400 Sand Filter w/ 6-way valve

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    Well, I opened it up and there is no bonding lug. It looks like there is a spot to put one if I really wanted too. attched a few pics to show
    16X24 Oval Doughboy
    10,000 Gallons~
    Pentair Dynamo .75/1.0 HP pump
    16" Pooline D-400 Sand Filter w/ 6-way valve

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    Another question regarding bonding.....

    Let's say my pool is bonded and there eventually does become a stray leak in the ground and my "bonding" equalizes" the potential for everything around it, how will I know if it is energized? Would I ever feel anything is all is equal?
    16X24 Oval Doughboy
    10,000 Gallons~
    Pentair Dynamo .75/1.0 HP pump
    16" Pooline D-400 Sand Filter w/ 6-way valve

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    Quote Originally Posted by fritz614
    Another question regarding bonding.....

    Let's say my pool is bonded and there eventually does become a stray leak in the ground and my "bonding" equalizes" the potential for everything around it, how will I know if it is energized? Would I ever feel anything is all is equal?
    If the bonding for the pool was done properly you will never feel anything. Something to keep in mind though is that there is always different electrical potentials around your pool, house, car, lawn chair, appliances, beverage can, etc, etc, etc. everything has a different electrical potential. Most of the time the difference is so small that you never feel it

    About a week ago, we had a power outage in our area. I had recently repaired a pool bonding grid for an above ground pool where the voltage potential between the water and the concrete pad near the pool was about 4-5 volts. A simple bond wire buried in the ground around the small pad and tied to the water bond was enough to equal them out. The pool owner, who I could not get to understand the whole voltage potential thing, was insistent that there had to be some sort of electrical problem with his house or a neighbors house. I had to move quickly and went over there to try something. I unhooked the bond I had installed and measured 3 volts of current between the water ant the pad. Now, keep in mind that all power in the area was out and I still had a voltage difference. Shortly after that the power came back on and the voltage reading was the same. I hooke the bond back up and the difference went away.

    I will throw this in from a previous post

    I wrote this a while back to help some people with understanding the difference between bonding and grounding......

    Bonding and grounding are two often misunderstood concepts.

    To start, we will look at grounding first. In the 120 volt electrical supply system for your pool pump there are 3 wires. Hot, Neutral, and ground. The hot and Neutral serve to move power from the source and back to the source so the pump can run. The ground wire in this system serves only as a non resistive conductive path back to source should something happen internally in the pump. For example, if, for some reason, the hot wire came in contact with the motor housing, the housing could become energized. Without the ground present, the housing could sit there waiting to shock any unsuspecting person or animal who happened to touch it. You would be the conductor to ground. Ground being the ground you are standing on. Now, because the resistive properties of the ground you are standing on are too high for the current to short circuit back to the source, it would most likely not trip the overcurrent protection (fuse, breaker). A couple of times here I have referred to "source". This is the power company transformer on the pole out at the street. The hot and neutral connections are both on this transformer and the returning current wants to get back to what is called the center tap on the transformer either via the grounding system or the neutral system. If there is a ground wire present in the circuit, the hot wire coming in contact with the motor housing would immediately trip the overcurrent protection as there would be a dead short in the system.

    Bonding. The really mis-understood concept.
    Have you ever experienced a static shock?...You know, you shuffle your feet across a carpet in the dry season and touch a metal doorknob. If you were bonded to that doorknob when you shuffled across the floor you would not have felt the shock when you touched it. Everything in the universe has what is referred to as electrical potential. Humans have a certain potential, a piece of steel has its own potential, water its own, etc, etc, etc. Most times this potential is not different enough to feel it. When you shuffle your feet on the carpet though, your potential changes from that of the doorknob. When you get close enough to the doorknob though both you and the doorknob want to get to the same potential. when that happens, a spark jumps the gap and evens out the potential. Fortunately there is little amperage behind it so there is no chance of getting electrocuted and since the event is a one time discharge you just dismiss it. Now, lets look at your pool. your pool pump is grounded back to the source thru the ground wire. But, it still is at some level of electrical potential. Your pool water is at some other level of potential, your heater at its own level, heck, the ground you are standing on is at some level of potential. This means that all of the items in the vicinity have some varying degree of electrical potential. Under most circumstances these potentials are so close to each other that you never feel any kind of shock. however, every once in a while something happens to change the potential of one of the items. It could be a stray voltage induced from an underground electrical service, It could be a slight resistive leakage of current in your pumping system. What ever it is there is a potential difference. Now imagine you are getting out of the pool and as you touch the metal side of the pool you get the shock of your life. Hopefully not enough to kill you but a good shot none-the-less. Guess what? You just became the bonding conductor in the system. Had all of the components in the system been bonded together by the #8 bonding wire you never would have felt it. The wire is a non-resistive path between all of the components and since electricity is lazy, it will take the least resistive path. This bonding system will also protect you if you were standing on the ground and decided to touch the water to see how warm it is. If the bond is in place there would be no potential difference between the water and the ground even if there were a stray current floating around.

    Hopefully this helps clear some of this up
    Unknown make 18' above ground (bought used in 1999) Sparco sand filter. Hayward 100,000 BTu heater. 2 speed pump

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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    Wow, I did not know there could be any voltage regardless of power being on or off. That is really interesting!! What causes that? just the natural Earths magnetic forces??

    How does one measure the voltage like you mentioned above? I would like to check mine, just not sure on the "proper and correct" way to do this. Tried Googleing it and came up zero.

    And then an off topic question: If power comes to a piece of equipment in the house, and the white wire returns back to the source what is not used, do I get charged for only the electricity used only or would I get charged for all power drawn by the equipment with no credit for power being returned?? I have pondered this one for awhile... and is that where the Power Factor comes into play?

    PS, THANKS for your great answer, it helped settle the fight going on in my head!!
    16X24 Oval Doughboy
    10,000 Gallons~
    Pentair Dynamo .75/1.0 HP pump
    16" Pooline D-400 Sand Filter w/ 6-way valve

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pump Bonding Question

    Stray voltage usually comes from utility company problems. It isn't all that common, but they do occasionally short high voltage lines to ground. When that happens, significant currents can flow through the ground over very long distances.

    There are several ways to describe what is happening with power draw. I prefer the wording that doesn't talk about power being "returned", though in a sense that is the exactly right way to say it. Power factor has to do with drawing power out of phase with the voltage. AC voltage is constantly changing (sine wave). Normally you draw the most current when the voltage is highest. But is is possible to build a circuit that draws the most power at some other point in the cycle, when the voltage is lower. That puts uneven loads on the utility company generator. They can handle some of that happening, but if it happens too much it creates inefficiencies in the system which can cause problems.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Can I sneak in a Q?

    This pool cost somebody a ton.

    But the only bare copper wire on the pad (40' from pool) is connected via one of those "grounding adapter" clamps - onto the rusting GAS line.

    I am not going to install a proper bonding line. End of discussion.

    Am I better off having an unbonded pump or having a bonding lug connecting to a live gas line? Should I remove the clamp and/or wire to prevent the next fool from tempting fate?

    Thanks
    Dave
    Sacramento
    1980's 15,000 Gal IG Plaster; 1 1/2 hp Hayward Northstar; Hayward Swimclear C3025 Cartridge Filter (325 sq ft, nom.); Pentair Legend; Polaris PB4-60; Equipment 40' from pool. p.s.: it's an aye-aye.

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