Electrical shock from my pool water!

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plucky71 said:
I connected the bonding wire to the heater and the pump. It still shocked my amazing handsome kind enthusiastic loving cool son :mrgreen: . :idea: I removed the metal ladder from the pool, and presto! No shocko!
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Did you end up bonding that ladder? It needs to be.
 
Did you end up bonding that ladder? It need to be.[/quote]


No I did not. It is an in-ground pool. The ladder pockets(?) are in the cement. Those metal pockets are obviously "charged" since the shock only occurs when I "connect" the pockets to the water with the ladder. I don't know what to do next. Is there some kind of wiring inside the motor that needs to be connected to the motor housing so the bonding works?
 
danpik said:
None taken. The NEC does not spell out where the water bond has to be, It only spells out that it has to be a water contact area of at least 9 square inches. I will agree that some systems that have bypass loops in place for heaters could circumvent the bond and that would have to be taken into consideration when designing the bond system.There are a few devices out on the market that are designed to be a water bond. One good one is mounted in the skimmer and sits tight against the wall. Another one replaces a hose connection at the pump or skimmer with a stainless steel fitting that can be bonded to. Resistance of the water is not realy an issue in this situation as the bond is meant to equalize potential difference by eliminating resistance between two different potentials. Without the bond in place you become the resistive path between the potentials and it can sometimes be painfull. Here is an incredible video of how voltage potential works. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjC7DjoVe8 At 1:38 in the video he somewhat explains how potential works.

Remember, in a grounding system, we are flowing current from the defect in the electrical system back to source. The ground wire acts as a low resistance path so you don't get shocked. In a bonding system we are simply keeping two or more voltage potentials equal. As long as the bond between these different potentials is of low enough resistance they will equal out and you don't become the conductor
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Okay, that makes sense. I think I've seen water bonding electrodes that fit inside the light niche as well as the ones you've mentioned.

BTW, how does one actually test the integrity of the bonding grid? Is it possible to simply measure the resistance between the water and the end of the bonding cable? It seems to be a rather complex endeavor, as such resistance would be a function of the resistance of the water, the radius from the nearest bonded part of the pool, etc.
 
plucky71 said:
I connected the bonding wire to the heater and the pump. It still shocked my amazing handsome kind enthusiastic loving cool son :mrgreen: . :idea: I removed the metal ladder from the pool, and presto! No shocko!
Click to expand...

OK, so the question in my mind is why did the ladder alter the potential between the pool and everything else?
It would seem that there is still an issue with the bond and the pool etc...

wc
 
linen said:
Did you end up bonding that ladder? It need to be.
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plucky71 said:
No I did not. It is an in-ground pool. The ladder pockets(?) are in the cement. Those metal pockets are obviously "charged" since the shock only occurs when I "connect" the pockets to the water with the ladder. I don't know what to do next. Is there some kind of wiring inside the motor that needs to be connected to the motor housing so the bonding works?
Click to expand...


No, you do not want any connection between the electrical system and the bonding system. The bond between all conductive components is to make sure that there is no voltage gradients (differences) around the pool. If you go back to my last post on the first page and see the video it might make it clearer. The guy on the helicopter bonded the helicopter to the power line thus putting himself, the helicopter and the power line all in the same potential. When he bonded on with the probe and you see the long electrical spark, this was the voltage difference equalling out between the helicopter and the power line. The helicopter was at a different potential than the wire untill they came in contact with one another thru the probe and eventually the clamp. In other words, there was 500,000 volts of electricity passing harmlesly over his body, thru the helicopter and all of the tools he was using once he was bonded. This is the same principle with the bonding around your pool. If all of the components are at the same potential and you are touching any two or three of them there is no voltage gradient wanting to equal out thru you. Right now the ladder and/or the water is obviously at a different potential than something else around the pool. When you touch it/them you complete the path. If the ladder is metal and in the water they are most likely at the same potential. The best way to test this is to use a volt meter to measure between the ladder and the bond wire at the pump (if there is one). If there is no bond connection you will see a voltage reading on the meter. If the bond is good then there will be no reading. This goes back to the fact that electricity is lazy and will take the path of least resistance. If the bond is in place and the connection is good the current will travel thru the wire and ignore the meter as it is a source of resistance. The bond wire should be attached to a lug on the outside of the metal pump housing or the pump frame. It may be that you will need to make a permanant connection from the ladder to the bond system as the ladder cups may not make a good enough connection any more or worse yet are some of the newer plastic ones I have seen and won't make a connection at all. And, by the way, your concrete pool deck is considered a conductive surface and is/should be connected to the bond system.
 
Thanks for the help. I am reading all of the posts and I did watch the video. I will continue to try and figure out the problem. I called the electric company and they won't send someone out. I don't know if I should call a electrician or pool repair at this point. It is hard to know what there actual experience level is. I will update when I have more information. Btw, the ladder cups are metal. So when I install the ladder I am basically connecting the ladder cups to the water and the ladder cups are connected to the poured concrete deck.
 
plucky71 said:
Also, there is what I am assuming is a bonding wire. It comes out of the ground at the equipment pad.
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If that is a fairly heavy bare copper wire, it is almost certainly the bond wire.

If it's just hanging out in space and not connected to the pump housing, heater housing etc., it's probably the root of your whole problem :!:
 

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Qwaxalot said:
plucky71 said:
Also, there is what I am assuming is a bonding wire. It comes out of the ground at the equipment pad.
Click to expand...

If that is a fairly heavy bare copper wire, it is almost certainly the bond wire.

If it's just hanging out in space and not connected to the pump housing, heater housing etc., it's probably the root of your whole problem :!:
Click to expand...


Yes, it is a heavy gauge bare copper. It was attached to the pump, but not well. It is now attached to the pump and heater but we are still getting shocked if the ladder is in the water.
 
Then that should be part of the bonding halo.. try running a wire between the ladder and that bonding wire. would be best to have a multi-meter to check the potential; however, I'd bet your shocking pool stops.
If it stops... then the question is... where has the bonding failed at the ladder... in the sockets... in the deck...
 
I've been reading through this, and it appears to me that neither the water nor the ladder sockets (and therefore the ladder itself) are bonded. A water bond is easy but bonding the ladder sockets is a real pain. However, Once the water is bonded and the ladder is installed it will be bonded somewhat by the water. That's not as good as a real bond but it should let you know if bonding it will fix the problem.
 
I am in electrician and I have worked on pools that the owners were getting shocked. I took a volt meter stuck one end in the ground by the pool and other end in the water and was getting 120 volts. If I unbounded the pool from the ground the voltage went away. It turned out that there was a problem with the power companies ground on the pole.
 
Thanks for the replies. I am still working on it. I found out that the ladder mounts that are cemented in have a problem. One on the mounts is broken under the cement, so one side is not bonded, but the other is. It also seems like the cement is not bonded, but I'm not sure on that yet. I'll keep at it. I started using a voltage meter instead of my son as the test subject. I am getting reading like 0.5-1.0 volts.
 
So here is the final findings. I turned off all electric at my breaker panel by turning the main breaker off. The pool is still shocking. I temporarily bonded both ladder pockets, that did not help. The cement that is within a foot or two of the ladder seems like it is bonded. No shock near the ladder. Any where else around the pool and I do get shocked. So, I don't know where the voltage is coming from and it seems like the cement is not bonded. I am not willing to break up the cement pad to bond it. So I guess that I am done trying to "fix" this problem. Thanks to everyone for your help as I tried to figure this one out. :goodjob:
 
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