Freelancer said:
Wow - you all don't use borax for laundry over yonder? That's one of the primary uses for it here in the states, and one of the reasons it's so readily available in just about every grocery store.
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Wow - you all don't use borax for laundry over yonder? That's one of the primary uses for it here in the states, and one of the reasons it's so readily available in just about every grocery store.
For those of you in Europe who wish to purchase the Lamotte Borate test strips they can be sourced from this website.
http://www.sword-scientific.com
The prices are quite good as well. They quoted me
53.28 Euro's per/pk + 15 Euro's delivery to Spain. (25 Strips per bottle) x12 Bottles per/pk
Which works out at €5.69 per bottle ($8.32 Approx) including shipping which from what I have seen on the Web is a good price.
I have no idea what price one bottle on there own is as I will need these test strips in bulk to do 100+ pools.
http://www.sword-scientific.com
The prices are quite good as well. They quoted me
53.28 Euro's per/pk + 15 Euro's delivery to Spain. (25 Strips per bottle) x12 Bottles per/pk
Which works out at €5.69 per bottle ($8.32 Approx) including shipping which from what I have seen on the Web is a good price.
I have no idea what price one bottle on there own is as I will need these test strips in bulk to do 100+ pools.
MikeInTN said:
Unfortunately you can only buy it from the chemist here in Spain in really small doses.. It's due to the fact that ETA, the Spanish terrorist group use Boric Acid in their bomb making..
Having read this post I see all the benefits are listed or using Borates in a pool but no mention as to how it actually does the things that it does.
For example how does it reduce algae growth, I did read on another forum that it reduces the food that algae require to bloom. Given the phosphate levels that I have seen posted by Borate users I have my doubts about this. However it would be interesting to know chemically what adding borates to the water actually did.
For example how does it reduce algae growth, I did read on another forum that it reduces the food that algae require to bloom. Given the phosphate levels that I have seen posted by Borate users I have my doubts about this. However it would be interesting to know chemically what adding borates to the water actually did.
There are posts in various forums about how Borates reduce carbon dioxide that is necessary for algae growth, but this simply isn't the case. In water the borates are mostly boric acid and its mechanism for killing microorganisms including algae is described in this link. It's not a fast algae killer and is more of an algae inhibitor, slowing its growth, but that's true for other algaecides such as PolyQuat as well. I write about human safety for borates at pool concentrations in this thread.
I thought that acid lowered both ph and TA, and that aeration allowed the ph to rise again. That's the cycle... lower both the ph and TA, let the ph rise, and lower both ph and TA, let the ph rise... etc. until the TA is lowered to the target. Then set the ph where you want it.
I think you thought right... Paul just has a different way of saying the same thing.Ohm_Boy said:
If you don't have borates, the amount of acid you use to control pH will have a minimal (although admittedly non-zero) effect on TA. For example in 10k gallons with TA 100, lowering pH from 7.9 to 7.4 takes 16 oz 31.45% MA, which lowers TA by... 6. (Per the Pool Calculator.)
If you are seriously trying to drop TA, it will take many rounds of acid+aeration. If you're trying to drop pH, the effect on TA will be small.
So, that's why I said it the way I did.
--paulr
If you are seriously trying to drop TA, it will take many rounds of acid+aeration. If you're trying to drop pH, the effect on TA will be small.
So, that's why I said it the way I did.
--paulr
Thanks very much Richard.. That is a most informative read and I'd recommend it to anybody who is thinking of using borates in their water.. Personally I do not put anything in my pools unless I'm pretty sure of what the effects would be.chem geek said:
Richard,
Having read more fully the document on Borates I found some interesting points which I'll post here.
"Concentrations of 5 and 10 mg boron/litre did not inhibit the growth of any species tested, with 10 mg boron/litre actually stimulating growth in the blue-green alga".
This point here is the one that I found most interesting...
"Growth was strongly inhibited in 26% of the species at 50 mg boron/litre (e.g. green alga Tetraselmis maculata; haptophyte Emiliania huxleyi; diatom Phaeodactylum tricornutum) and in 63% of the species at 100 mg boron/litre (e.g. chrysophyte Monochrysis lutheri). The highest concentration was also lethal to 37% of the species (e.g. diatom Cyclotella cryptica; dinoflagellate Amphidinium carteri). Some species (e.g. green alga Monallantus salina) required an adaptation period, with growth imperceptible until 34-36 days after inoculation. Sequential transfer tests showed that many of the initially inhibited species recovered after exposure to 50 mg boron/litre, but not after exposure to 100 mg boron/litre. The authors concluded that higher concentrations would be expected to cause species redistribution, favouring growth of some forms and suppressing growth of others.
Having read more fully the document on Borates I found some interesting points which I'll post here.
"Concentrations of 5 and 10 mg boron/litre did not inhibit the growth of any species tested, with 10 mg boron/litre actually stimulating growth in the blue-green alga".
This point here is the one that I found most interesting...
"Growth was strongly inhibited in 26% of the species at 50 mg boron/litre (e.g. green alga Tetraselmis maculata; haptophyte Emiliania huxleyi; diatom Phaeodactylum tricornutum) and in 63% of the species at 100 mg boron/litre (e.g. chrysophyte Monochrysis lutheri). The highest concentration was also lethal to 37% of the species (e.g. diatom Cyclotella cryptica; dinoflagellate Amphidinium carteri). Some species (e.g. green alga Monallantus salina) required an adaptation period, with growth imperceptible until 34-36 days after inoculation. Sequential transfer tests showed that many of the initially inhibited species recovered after exposure to 50 mg boron/litre, but not after exposure to 100 mg boron/litre. The authors concluded that higher concentrations would be expected to cause species redistribution, favouring growth of some forms and suppressing growth of others.
Don't forget that you aren't using 50 ppm Borates (ppm Boron) alone, but rather with chlorine at levels that kills algae. So there shouldn't be the kind of adaptation you describe. The Borates inhibit growth as an adjunct to chlorine and do so enough to prevent runaway algae growth if the chlorine gets to zero so is like insurance, but it is not intended to completely prevent algae growth on its own, especially not at the 50 ppm level. The 50 ppm level is decent for inhibition with chlorine and as insurance without chlorine and as an additional pH buffer. It's also low enough to be safe for humans and marginal (somewhat below first symptoms) for pets such as dogs that drink pool water every day (which they should be encouraged not to do).
That is a good point Richard but equally it's good to know exactly what is happening when you put Borates into your water..
OK I have one more question regarding the Pool calculator and Borates.
As expected when you add borates to the water the required amount of acid goes up if you wish to lower your PH.
What I was not expecting was that the required amount of Sodium Bicarbonate did not change if you added borate and wanted to raise your Alkalinity.
So does adding Borates just stabilize the PH or does it stabilize both PH and Alk?
If it does stabilize the ALK then why does it not require more Sodium Bicarbonate to raise the ALK?
Anyone with any ideas on these questions your input would be most appreciated. Thanks.
OK I have one more question regarding the Pool calculator and Borates.
As expected when you add borates to the water the required amount of acid goes up if you wish to lower your PH.
What I was not expecting was that the required amount of Sodium Bicarbonate did not change if you added borate and wanted to raise your Alkalinity.
So does adding Borates just stabilize the PH or does it stabilize both PH and Alk?
If it does stabilize the ALK then why does it not require more Sodium Bicarbonate to raise the ALK?
Anyone with any ideas on these questions your input would be most appreciated. Thanks.
Adding borates only helps to stabilize the PH. There isn't any stabilizing effect on alkalinity.
50 ppm Borates at a pH of 7.5 does raise the Total Alkalinity (TA) by 5 ppm, but that may not be measurable on your TA test which is only +/- 10 ppm. The borates are an additional pH buffer, but they more strongly buffer against a rise in pH rather than a drop (in terms of capacity as the pH changes; more on that below). TA is a measure of the total pH buffer capacity against a drop in pH and does not measure the capacity against a rise in pH, which technically is called Total Acidity and is something that we don't measure (and really don't need to, so long as we know the Borates, TA and CYA which are all pH buffering components in the water).
TA can be misleading, however, since the total buffer capacity is not the same thing as how much pH buffering there is for small changes in pH. As you have noted, the borates have you need more acid to lower the pH even though that doesn't show up as very much significant pH buffering in the TA number. If you were to add lots of acid to get the pH down to 4.5, where the TA test changes color, then the borates would have an effect in the 7.0 to 7.5 range, but after that they wouldn't have much of an effect, especially compared to the carbonates buffer. Going the other way, the borates get stronger as a pH buffer at higher pH. So the borates are ideally suited as a pH buffer system when using a hypochlorite source of chlorine since the pH tends to rise and not fall in that situation.
As Jason noted, alkalinity does not get buffered -- it is a measure of buffering itself. One thing that does affect the TA is a change in pH when such a change is done via a strong acid or base since the pH and TA move together.
TA can be misleading, however, since the total buffer capacity is not the same thing as how much pH buffering there is for small changes in pH. As you have noted, the borates have you need more acid to lower the pH even though that doesn't show up as very much significant pH buffering in the TA number. If you were to add lots of acid to get the pH down to 4.5, where the TA test changes color, then the borates would have an effect in the 7.0 to 7.5 range, but after that they wouldn't have much of an effect, especially compared to the carbonates buffer. Going the other way, the borates get stronger as a pH buffer at higher pH. So the borates are ideally suited as a pH buffer system when using a hypochlorite source of chlorine since the pH tends to rise and not fall in that situation.
As Jason noted, alkalinity does not get buffered -- it is a measure of buffering itself. One thing that does affect the TA is a change in pH when such a change is done via a strong acid or base since the pH and TA move together.
This post gives some specific examples demonstrating how the carbonate and cyanuric acid pH buffering systems are more effective against a drop in pH than a rise in pH while the borates are very effective against a rise in pH.
svenpup
LifeTime Supporter
Re:
Could someone expound on this? The pool calculator looks like it doesn't take borates into account for the TA calculation. How difficult does it become to move TA, or do you not care about TA after adding borates?
JasonLion said:
Could someone expound on this? The pool calculator looks like it doesn't take borates into account for the TA calculation. How difficult does it become to move TA, or do you not care about TA after adding borates?
The "Effects of adding chemicals" section does not account for borates, but it says that -- this section has specific assumptions.
However, the colored section figuring out how much in chemicals to add to change parameters from "Now" to "Target" does take into account borates. If you set the Target pH to be different than the Now pH, you will see how the amount of acid or base changes significantly if you change the Borates (for both Target and Now) from 0 ppm to 50 ppm. The calculation for what needs to be done to change the TA is not affected by Borates (more on that below).
It is not at all difficult to increase TA since you still add the same amount of baking soda regardless of the Borates level. It is only somewhat more difficult to lower the TA in that it takes more acid to lower the pH in the first step and it takes more aeration to see a pH rise in the intermediate and last steps. This isn't really a big problem -- the larger amount of acid it takes to lower the pH also lowers the TA more as well (since the amount of lowering of TA depends only on the amount of acid that is added, independent of borates). In terms of speed of lowering the TA itself, it takes just as long with Borates as without -- what is more "difficult" is the less visibility into the process since the pH rises more slowly with aeration. So that last step of the TA lowering process where you raise the pH back up will take longer when you have Borates.
However, the colored section figuring out how much in chemicals to add to change parameters from "Now" to "Target" does take into account borates. If you set the Target pH to be different than the Now pH, you will see how the amount of acid or base changes significantly if you change the Borates (for both Target and Now) from 0 ppm to 50 ppm. The calculation for what needs to be done to change the TA is not affected by Borates (more on that below).
It is not at all difficult to increase TA since you still add the same amount of baking soda regardless of the Borates level. It is only somewhat more difficult to lower the TA in that it takes more acid to lower the pH in the first step and it takes more aeration to see a pH rise in the intermediate and last steps. This isn't really a big problem -- the larger amount of acid it takes to lower the pH also lowers the TA more as well (since the amount of lowering of TA depends only on the amount of acid that is added, independent of borates). In terms of speed of lowering the TA itself, it takes just as long with Borates as without -- what is more "difficult" is the less visibility into the process since the pH rises more slowly with aeration. So that last step of the TA lowering process where you raise the pH back up will take longer when you have Borates.
"tech" grade, or technical grade, is fine. Granular seems to be much easier to handle. The powder works, but it tends to form lumps that don't dissolve very quickly and it can also blow around.
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