So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

[amjohn]

I have to say, I am quite pleased with the results of the borates so far, and we have not even been in the pool yet. I am at about 30ppm using powdered boric acid. I had terrible ring around the pool, a band about 2 inches wide of greasy black stain from the black clay and oiltop country roads in my area. I had been using a Mr. clean magic eraser, and scrubbing scrubbing scrubbing. Had actually destroyed two of them, and it was still there. I added the borates. A few days later we had a big rain that filled the pool so that the entire ring was under the water level. It took some time to get the water level to go down, and when it finally did, I was able to wipe most of the ring away in about a half hour, with one magic eraser and it is still good for another use. There is still a shadow of a stain there, as the ring has been there since a few days after the pool was installed last August, but I expect it to improve as I continue to keep borates in the pool and use the magic eraser when I am in the pool.

 

[jwfrank]

Richard, thanks for your explanation. what do you assume in your PoolEquations spreadsheet?

 

[AV8TOR]

I am waiting on my Borate test kit from Dave at TF but I have a question in the meantime. I am assuming that I have no borates in my pool currently until I test it so my question is this, is it okay to treat my pool using the pool-calc assuming 0 ppm now and treat to 30ppm and after my test kit comes in treat the balance for a target of 50ppm or just wait and do it all the same day?

 

[chem geek]

Richard, thanks for your explanation. what do you assume in your PoolEquations spreadsheet?

The spreadsheet has a pull-down control in the "Base to add to increase pH" section that also applies to the Borates section if you select one of the following as a base:

20 Mule Team Borax (Sodium Tetraborate Decahydrate)
Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate
Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate (DOT)
Boric Acid (not used for pH adjustment)

Of course, you can use The Pool Calculator which has options for "borax" and "boric acid".

Richard

 

[JasonLion]

You can do everything at once later or do half now and half later. It doesn't really make any difference. If it was me, I would split borax and acid into two parts, but do Boric acid all at once.

 

[AV8TOR]

Well another one joining in on the Borates to your pool tonight. I followed the Pool Calculators recommendations and so far the pH is right where it started at. All and all pretty simply to do. I bypassed the timer for the filter and we will let er run. Thanks for all of the information this guys.

 

[reebok]

I have a question about raising the pH before starting. since it's a pain and time consuming (for some) to do the aeration, once one reaches the correct TA level, why aerate to increase the pH, when you have to turn around and buy gallons of acid to keep the pH down? why not just use less acid during the borax addition and let the borates raise the pH? thanks.

 

[amjohn]

We actually got to swim for two days before it started raining again last night. At 30ppm borates, the water is clear and clean, but seems to have a slightly "bitter" taste. I am not drinking it, just splashing around and getting it on my face. (I use Borax in my laundry to deal with odor, so I have tasted Borax before accidentally- got it on myself while dumping in laundry.) I felt clean getting out of the pool, no itchiness later, the water does not have any odor, and I will keep the borates, but wonder if anyone else has experienced a bitter taste?

 

[JasonLion]

I have a question about raising the pH before starting. since it's a pain and time consuming (for some) to do the aeration, once one reaches the correct TA level, why aerate to increase the pH, when you have to turn around and buy gallons of acid to keep the pH down? why not just use less acid during the borax addition and let the borates raise the pH? thanks.

The final result would be a higher TA level than you want. The difference wouldn't be all that large, but the TA level would be higher this way.

Using aeration to raise the PH will not change the TA level. Adding borax to raise the PH will also raise the TA level.

 

[Guest]

For what it's worth, I did the initial experiment with 20 mule team on my own pool along with chemgeeks help back when no one was using borates and we didn't know whether to believe the claims being made by Bioguard and Proteam for their expensive borate products. I was mainly interested in the pH buffering effects because I have a SWG. The experiment was well documented on Pool Forum well before TroubleFreePool existed and Pool Forum was still accepting new members. It didn't seem to generate a lot of interest back then except for the few that actually tried it and then we started getting some anecdotal reports on how it was keeping green and mustard algae at bay. I saw this first hand myself when I went out of town for two weeks last August and shut the pool down. (Remember that I am in Florida! I have seen pools go from clear to swamp in just a few days here.) Don't have an autofill, get a lot of evaporation and figured a few bottles of bleach when I get back would be cheaper than replacing a burned out pump! I expected to come back to a green pool but I didn't. I had no chlorine in the pool and it really wasnn't even cloudy. All I did was shock it to 25 ppm FC before I left. I know it was the borates that kept my pool from becoming a swamp. (Unless, of course, there is a chlorine fairy that goes around adding chlorine to pools that need it! If you believe that one I want to talk to you about some beachfront land I have for sale in Kansas! )

I have overseen the addition of borates in many of my customer's and friend's pools with 20 mule team, Supreme, and Supreme Plus. The first two are basically identical except for the amounts needed and the third is really easy...just dump and go....pH stays where you started.

I have never used the calculator for borates (never saw the needs because the amounts are so easy to figure out) so I can't vouch for the amount of acid and borax it says you need but I use 60 oz (3 3/4 lbs) by weight of 20 mule team and 30 oz by volume of muriatic for each 1000 gallons water and it's been just about perfect every time. You could simplify it even more and just use a quart of acid per 1000 gallons. The pH will rise on it's own in a few days. As long as your ending pH is not below 7.0 you are fine and if you start with a pH around 7.4-7.6 then it shouldn't be, which is why I said to adjust the pH first in my guide! (KISS!) For Supreme and the other penthydrate products I use 10 lbs for every 3000 gallons (3 1/3 lbs per 1000 gallons) and for every 10 lbs I use 3 qts muriatic (3/4 gal--works out to 1 qt per 1000 gallons) and its' been also pretty much on the money!

I have found that the pH after 48 hours is right on the money and the borates titrate to right around 50 ppm. (Yes, there is a titration test for borates from Proteam but it is expensive (around $60 for the kit) and not an easy test to do. I use the LaMotte strips most of the time and the newest Proteam branded strips are also from LaMotte!) As long as the pH is above 7.2 and below 7.8 it's fine. Remember, we just put a second buffer system in the water and, along with our bicarbonate buffer we call TA (you DID get the TA in line first, didn't you?) your pH will end up at about 7.7 if you do nothing at all but wait and it will stay there for a long period of time

Once it climbs above 7.8 then add some acid and bring it back down. If you don't drop it below about 7.5 it won't rise as fast, btw.

Also, I have never used boric acid so if anyone is going to experiment with that you are on your own as far as I am concerned!

I am not saying that you need to listen to my advice or that I am the final word on borates....just giving you an idea of my experience with them.


It gets very easy to micromanage your pool and I try to avoid that at all costs. Borates are one of the easiest things to do if you follow the guideline I set up because it takes a lot of the "fine points" into consideration so the results come out right with minimum effort.
Get them up to 50 and when they drop to 30 bring them back up to 50 again. When the pH climbs above 7.8 drop it back down to 7.5-7.6 and you will find that you don't have to make pH adjustments nearly as often as you did before the borates (assuming you get the TA to where I suggested) Easy!

 

[LostBoyinVA]

So I have 2 60lbs Dogs that run around the pool all summer long. One is in the pool constantly if I don't block off the entrance stairs and even then she drinks from the pool often. The other comes to the side and I have to cup my hands to give him a drink. They would much rather drink my nice clean pool water then from any bowl I set out. If I where to consider adding borates to my pool, how much is "large quantities of water" that might harm my puppies? If we are talking more then a gallon a day I think I'm ok, but I'd much rather have drifting PH then my dogs getting sick.

thanks,

PS yes I went to the link listed in the thread on borate posioning, but that kind of math and chemestry is just way over my head.

 

[Hotrod30]

So I have 2 60lbs Dogs that run around the pool all summer long. One is in the pool constantly if I don't block off the entrance stairs and even then she drinks from the pool often. The other comes to the side and I have to cup my hands to give him a drink. They would much rather drink my nice clean pool water then from any bowl I set out. If I where to consider adding borates to my pool, how much is "large quantities of water" that might harm my puppies? If we are talking more then a gallon a day I think I'm ok, but I'd much rather have drifting PH then my dogs getting sick.

thanks,

PS yes I went to the link listed in the thread on borate posioning, but that kind of math and chemestry is just way over my head.

With two dogs around the pool, I would forget it. Why take the chance.

 

[LostBoyinVA]

A .5-1 gallon Acid demand per week consistently since the pool was installed in August of 2005 is the reason I am considering adding the borates. It is a 32000 gallon gunite/plaster pool with a SWG so my PH constantly drifts up. The drift usually isn't fast enough that I have to add Acid more then once a week, but it is currently the most annoying part of pool maintenance due to the precautions needs when dealing with acid.

 

[JasonLion]

Borates won't reduce the total amount of acid you need to use but they will dramatically reduce the frequency of acid additions.

 

[amjohn]

Borates added 6 weeks ago. No time to vacuum the pool because of working on solar panels. Add bleach every other day. Solar cover on all the time. Water was EIGHTY-SEVEN Degrees when this picture was taken yesterday. It has only been in the low 80's air temps. This was the first time the solar cover had been off in 6 weeks, and, like I said, it has not been vacuumed in that time. I am soooo glad I added borates. I cannot get over how beautiful my water is, and this is dirty. Wait until I get time to get it good and clean! BTW This is a plain blue liner- the sparkle is pure water sparkle- no fancy liner pattern to add to it.

 

[Etek14]

I would like the PH and algae benefits of Borates but was wondering about the balance between these benefits and any health concerns (if any). The idea of boric acids and muriatic acid and such seems like a bad thing but probable not as bad as having CC's in your pool or an unbalanced pool for that matter. I'm guessing Borax and acid is the cheapest route but have seen Boric acid online for 48 bux for 50 lbs, not sure of shipping cost yet.

Thanx for any info........

 

[JasonLion]

There are no health concerns for humans at all once the chemicals are added to the pool. There are some very small risks for pets.

The process of adding the chemicals does have some very minor risks. You don't want to get any muriatic acid in your eyes, wear eye protection. Muriatic acid can also damage clothing. You don't want to eat borax or boric acid. You do want to be a little cautious when dealing with the full strength chemicals. Simple precautions are sufficient, keep chemicals away from children, wear eye protection, don't breathe fumes from muriatic acid. But once they are mixed into the water you are fine.

 

[amjohn]

Using the dry boric acid from chemstore website could not be easier, and the price is very close to buying Borax and muriatic acid, especially for me in a rural area where these things are hard to come by anyways. The boric acid is a fine crystalline powder- poured it in front of the skimmer- %99 percent of it dissolved immediately. I brushed anyways to be certain- 15 minutes later I had a borated pool. It tests cleaner than our drinking water (which is from an FDA "superior" source) and it tastes better too (not that I am drinking it, but it is hard not to notice) and looks a whole lot better.

 

[kenny]

This has probably been answered already, but how long do you have to wait to swim after adding the borates?

Thanks,

 

[JasonLion]

That depends on which chemicals you use to raise the borate level. Using boric acid, you should wait about an hour. Using borax and muriatic acid I would wait overnight.