So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

[Water_man]

DYI "Supreme Plus"

There may be an increased interest now among Liquidator users in adding 50 ppm borates because apparently this may help solving the calcium deposits problem, aka "the white stuff", which can cripple the LQ down.
Since LQ users have had their fair share of pool work more than they had anticipated before installing it, I'm sure they would prefer the easiest way to add borates on one hand, and to do it cost effectively on the other hand.
Proteam's Supreme Plus is expensive, and it contains sodium borate, boric acid and "fragrance" in an undisclosed dosage.

Boric acid is relatively inexpensive and can be purchased on line from different sources.

I wonder if anyone can figure out what should be the weight ratio of Borax and boric acid in order to add borates and have the pH of the resulting solution at about 7.5.
If someone has boric acid at hand and scales, perhaps a relatively simple kitchen bench test can give the answer.

 

[fixit5561]

Hey guys,

Here is a place that I found online, cant remember who I got it from but they have the borax for sale and I dont know if it is cheaper than Walmart borax but Ill post it anyways. The site is http://www.cqconcepts.com/ click on products at the top of the page and look for Borax.

Hope this helps
Brian

 

[sks23cu]

... I dont know if it is cheaper than Walmart borax but Ill post it anyways. The site is http://www.cqconcepts.com/ click on products at the top of the page and look for Borax. ...

A quick search for "20 mule team borax" on Google results in prices of $4.09+/76 oz. I think local supermarkets sell for less than this.

http://www.cqconcepts.com/chem_sodiumborate.php lists two prices: $11.38/5 lb and $33.08/25 lb.

The Google price per 5 pounds is 5 * 4.09 / (76/16) = $4.30 / 5 lb, so $21.53 / 25 lb.


You'd think buying in bulk would be cheaper, but in this case you'd pay at least 50% more!

 

[TripleB4me]

Borated my pool this past weekend, 20 boxes of borax and 6 gallons of MA. I do notice that the water does feel "softer" but it's a bit early to tell if the drifting pH is better.

I haven't really noticed that the water sparkles any more than before but since my water has always been balanced, thanks to all that I've learned here, I'm not surprised.

 

[chatcher]

Has there been any discussion of of using boric acid in place of muriatic acid for maintaining pH, to gradually add borates over time? Of course you'd need to stop when the borate level was where you want it.

 

[JasonLion]

Boric acid is a fairly weak acid, you could probably add the entire amount you want to use and not shift the PH by very much.

 

[chem geek]

Re: DYI "Supreme Plus"

I wonder if anyone can figure out what should be the weight ratio of Borax and boric acid in order to add borates and have the pH of the resulting solution at about 7.5.

I already answered this question in this post, at least for Proteam Supreme which would be 94.6% Boric Acid with 5.4% Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate.

As Jason said, Boric Acid is a very weak acid at the pH of pools so adding 382 ounces weight in 10,000 gallons to get to 50 ppm Borates only has the pH drop from 7.5 to 7.31 (assuming a TA of 100). It would take 29 ounces weight in 10,000 gallons of Borax to restore the pH to 7.5 and that would raise the Borates an additional 2.4 ppm. So by weight it's 93% Boric Acid with 7.0% Borax to be pH neutral (at pH 7.5).

Richard

 

[fixit5561]

SKS

yes you are right, I just went to Walmart and they had 20 Mule Team Borax for $2.54 for a 76oz box. So you are right, it is cheaper to get it from the supermakets.

Brian

 

[sks23cu]

SKS

yes you are right, I just went to Walmart and they had 20 Mule Team Borax for $2.54 for a 76oz box. So you are right, it is cheaper to get it from the supermarkets.

Brian

Great price, Brian!

So you got it for 2.54 / ( 76/16 ) = $0.53474 / lb. = $2.67 / 5 lb = $13.37 / 25 lb.

Certainly a bargain compared to http://www.cqconcepts.com/chem_sodiumborate.php prices of $11.38/5 lb and $33.08/25 lb.

 

[sks23cu]

I've been using Borax for at least 5 years now. I started using it as a pH increaser after reading Ben Powell's web page on it.

I remember the first two things my wife and I noticed was that we had much less algae, AND the vinyl liner was squeaky clean! Also, the usual scum line at water's edge no longer formed, or was VERY easily wiped off.

Is it possible that the squeaky clean action is the primary reason Borax is an algaecide? I seem to remember that the algae always started to form on the liner, mostly in the corners of the pool where the circulation was poor. Perhaps the Borax acts like a detergent (which would explain the easily cleaned scum line) and keeps the algae from adhering to the liner, thereby keeping it in better contact with the dissolved chlorine.

Every time I get that squeaky clean feeling when I walk on the liner, I thank Ben.

 

[fixit5561]

Well I went out and bought the MA and 20 Mule team and added it according to the Pool calculators numbers, I did that yesterday. After I did add it all, I rechecked my PH just out of curiousity about 2-3 hrs later. It was right where I started at 7.5-7.6. (I checked it before I added the MA and Borax)

I went and rechecked the PH today and it was right at 7.6 or so but the TA was high at 130, so I added MA to the water to bring down the TA and started my 4 little fountains that came with my stereo for my pool to aerate the PH back up. Usually the little fountains do a pretty good job in a day or 2 to bring up my PH.

My question is, now that I have the Borates in the pool, will I have to add more than what the Pool calculator says to add of MA to lower the TA, or should it still be right on for adjusting the TA?

Thanks in advance
Brian

 

[JasonLion]

The PH calculations in my Pool Calculator do not currently correct for the borates level, so the amounts of MA will be wrong when you have borates.

 

[NCFlyersFan]

The PH calculations in my Pool Calculator do not currently correct for the borates level, so the amounts of MA will be wrong when you have borates.

Is there a general rule of thumb that can be applied to the poolcalculator volume of MA when you have borates (in the recommended range) and need to adjust pH? Just curious...

 

[JasonLion]

The effect borates have varies. 1.5 times as much MA is a good starting point, but you will need to adjust that depending on your particular situation.

 

[fixit5561]

Thanks for the info Jason,

I did have to add twice the MA to get the TA (TA was 130 upon starting to try to lower it) and PH (PH was 7.6)to go down, and I probably could have added a little more. The Pool Calculator said to add 3 cups 6 oz of MA to bring the PH down to 7.2. I added the 3 cups 6 oz's and it didnt seem to do anything after an hour, so I added 3 more cups and that brought my PH down to about 7.3 and my TA down to 110 when I checked it this morning.
Thanks again Jason! :-D
Brian

 

[darb2723]

How long before you can swim after adding the 20 mule? Did mine this afternoon, 18 boxes, 5.5 gallons of MA. Plan to check pH in couple of hours.

 

[JasonLion]

Give it a minimum of one hour, and then double check the PH and adjust it as needed before swimming.

 

[port 13]

i know it is a bit off topic, but does anybody know how much borax and dry acid to use for a 450 gallon hot tub? i know i can use the pool calculatory to determine the borax, but it only lists the MA amount. I am also looking for the dry acid to avoid buying MA.

thanks in advance.

port

 

[Guest]

i know it is a bit off topic, but does anybody know how much borax and dry acid to use for a 450 gallon hot tub? i know i can use the pool calculatory to determine the borax, but it only lists the MA amount. I am also looking for the dry acid to avoid buying MA.

thanks in advance.

port

10 oz. BY WIEGHT of dry acid can be substituted for each cup (8 oz.) of muriatic to get you in the ballpark.
So a ballpark figure for about 50 ppm would be slightly less than 30 oz. BY WIEGHT of borax (a bit less than half a box) and about 1 to 1 1/4 lbs. dry acid.

 

[idowatsu]

Just did my pool today 3boxes and 12 oz. borax and minus 8 oz from a gal. of acid.