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Thread: TA and CYA numbers?

  1. #61
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    TDS must be drained/refilled, Iron can be sequestered with a chemical (though a drain and refill with iron free water is also an option). Your copper level should be fine.

    He could justify charging a lot more for a drain/refill, then adding a sequestrant.

    Your filter size is a bit small at 84 sq. ft. so it will require more frequent cleaning, which of course would be quite often while clearing a pool. I can't imagine having to clean all 14 everyday

    If you ever get a new filter we would recommend a minimum of 200 sq. ft. cartridge filter.

    We drain and refill ourselves. Even if it had to be totally emptied, we wuld do that. We're in the country. Drain to the brush on our property line that borders a farm field. Opposite side of the well and septic. Half drains for winter have never been destructive, accept maybe to the weeds which is fine.

    If we had to do a total drain, it would be next year, for a new liner. He won't get our business for that. After taking two months with the motor, then making me wait another week for filters that were ordered in April, I won't be buying ANYTHING from him. HE doesn't know that, yet.
    So, he profits nothing, really from any advice he gives me at this point.

    As it stands, the liner gets replaced next year, with a new filter system OR we fill it in and make a nice patio.
    We can not do it this year. Believe me, I do not enjoy the frequency at which I have to rinse the cartridges.

    For the moment. My plan is to replace a current cartridge with the extra new one and see if one of those cleans up with something stronger than hosing.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  2. #62
    Senior Member linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jule
    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    TDS must be drained/refilled, Iron can be sequestered with a chemical (though a drain and refill with iron free water is also an option). Your copper level should be fine.

    He could justify charging a lot more for a drain/refill, then adding a sequestrant.

    Your filter size is a bit small at 84 sq. ft. so it will require more frequent cleaning, which of course would be quite often while clearing a pool. I can't imagine having to clean all 14 everyday

    If you ever get a new filter we would recommend a minimum of 200 sq. ft. cartridge filter.

    We drain and refill ourselves. Even if it had to be totally emptied, we wuld do that. We're in the country. Drain to the brush on our property line that borders a farm field. Opposite side of the well and septic. Half drains for winter have never been destructive, accept maybe to the weeds which is fine.

    If we had to do a total drain, it would be next year, for a new liner. He won't get our business for that. After taking two months with the motor, then making me wait another week for filters that were ordered in April, I won't be buying ANYTHING from him. HE doesn't know that, yet.
    So, he profits nothing, really from any advice he gives me at this point.

    As it stands, the liner gets replaced next year, with a new filter system OR we fill it in and make a nice patio.
    We can not do it this year. Believe me, I do not enjoy the frequency at which I have to rinse the cartridges.

    For the moment. My plan is to replace a current cartridge with the extra new one and see if one of those cleans up with something stronger than hosing.
    Just to clarify, my above response was to why he might be pushing about tds and not the metals. I am not suggesting you need to do a drain/refill.

    Keep going with the shocking process, you are making progress!
    TFP Moderator who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  3. #63
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    oh, I understood that linen, , but good for you to reiterate for anyone else reading the thread.
    I have located another pool store that will do a metals / TDS test for me. Want to see if there results jibe with the other.
    Hoping I can get a test of the source water from them too. But Im only going to present that sample if their TDS result is high.
    I'll be going in the morning with that. Will post their results.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  4. #64
    Senior Member linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    I would not worry at all about the TDS measurement for all the reasons stated above.
    TFP Moderator who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  5. #65
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    On Saturday I went to a different store that tested my water for metals & TDS. To verify Store #1's TDS reading. These are their results:
    Store #2 Tests
    TC: 10 (they only read to 10, Print out said Chlorine too high)
    FC: 10
    PH: 7.6
    TA: 215
    CH: 150
    CYA: 0
    Copper: 0
    Iron: 0
    TDS: 2570
    Phospahte: 400

    He tested for TDS first and asked me how many years since the last total drain?

    Store #1 Tests:
    FC: 2
    PH: 7.6
    TA:160
    CH:80
    CYA: not tested
    Copper: .5
    Iron: 0
    TDS: 2500

    (Also had Store #2 test the fill water which is fine in the 200's)

    Okay, so the TDS is high. Store #1 says drain. Store #2 says they'd recommend a drain, but since we plan on that next year, he said that's fine then.
    3000 is the upper limit.

    Store #2 copper: 0 vs Store #1 copper of .5 accounts for the difference in the CH values.
    Store #1 CH:80 Ideal 200 vs Store #2 CH: 150 Ideal 250
    Either way, the pool school has ideal between 50 -300. Why the large spread?????

    --------So about the TA------
    Store #1 on Thursday TA: 160 ( my TA: 190-200)
    Store #2 on Saturday TA 215 ( my TA: Sunday am - 190)
    My TA this Monday morning: 240 last drop to no color change.

    My TA is too high.
    MY PH has been 7.5 to 7.6
    This morning is way off the color block!!!! deep deep dark red!!

    The water in my pool is clear to the bottom.
    Yet I've been struggling with dark (brown?) 'stuff' collecting along the seam and depressions on the bottom of my pool.
    Now it could be dust, but it begins to show up again within an hour after I vacuum.
    It does puff into a barely discernible grayish cloud when pushed without pump running. So, algae? It's not green, it's brown, and sometimes appears to have a light yellowish/orangy hallo.

    When I described this to pool store guy #2 after he did the tests, he said it sounded like mustard algae, and recommended Pro-Team Mustard & Black Magic Algaecide, which I bought, because it passed the OLCT test only one night in two weeks, bottom free of 'stuff', yet the CC is always 0 regardless of the FC level, which have ranged from 5 to 34 over the pass two plus weeks.

    I have not used the Pro-Team yet.
    Because, according to what I've read, mustard algae grows on the walls and in the shadows of the pools. Correct?
    See pool photos. This is not happening in my pool.

    What I am concerned about is the amount of chlorine in my pool. And how much of it may be "bound up" which from what I've read can happen with high TDS levels.

    Also, when you 'shock' it throws off the PH,
    yet high PH can reduce the effectiveness of the chlorine.

    My water has felt 'different' since adding the CYA last week. Which MY reading this morning is 35.
    (Half way between 30 & 40 in the tube)

    I couldn't identify the feeling. At first I though it was 'clean' 'sticky'.
    but the past few days, I'm not sure. More slimy. What the heck does slimy feel like?
    It's not the same feel as the water out of the source faucet, which I did have tested for TDS also. The result was 275.

    Also over the past few days, the 'chlorine smell" has been slightly noticeable and the water has a slightly salty taste to it.

    I'm also interested in anyone's thoughts on 'phantom chloramines'.
    When I converted from Baqua to Chlorine, I was told to ignore that my clear CC reading turned light pink after a few minutes.
    This is happening now.
    It shows clear after adding the 5 drops of #R-0003, but within a couple minutes it's light pink again. I've read that this indicates phantom chloramines, which can occur with high TDS levels.

    To keep the FC up over 20 during 90 plus whether & direct sun for 10 hours every day is just not possible.
    Other threads say shocking during the day under those conditions is a waste of chlorine and money. I have to agree. I have spent way more money on this than it should take. Yet if I don't try to keep it up, then what? Algae just keeps blooming?

    My husband says I'm being too anal about this pool. People swim in lakes that are no where as clean as this pool looks.
    I just want to know that it's safe to swim in.


    Would you let your children swim in this pool in the afternoon with low FC levels?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  6. #66
    Senior Member linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    I know I sound like a broken record...ignore tds.

    Quote Originally Posted by jule
    because it passed the OLCT test only one night in two weeks, bottom free of 'stuff', yet the CC is always 0 regardless of the FC level, which have ranged from 5 to 34 over the pass two plus weeks.
    If you are not passing the OCLT, then you need to shock or continue shocking. If you suspect mustard algae, after you pass the OCLT, then bring the pool up to Mustard Algae shock level and hold it up there for 24 hours, see: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-.../mustard_algae. However, you are not passing the OCLT, so you are not done with the normal shocking process.

    At cya of 35 , shoot for a shocking level of 14 ppm and dont' let it drop below that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jule
    When I converted from Baqua to Chlorine, I was told to ignore that my clear CC reading turned light pink after a few minutes.
    This is happening now.
    That always happens if you let it sit for a minute of two...so ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by jule
    What I am concerned about is the amount of chlorine in my pool. And how much of it may be "bound up" which from what I've read can happen with high TDS levels.
    The only part of TDS that could be doing the "bounding" is cya and you have tested for that. Ignore tds, by the way I have much higher tds than you, although I have not had it tested as a group my swg had a salt level 3400 ppm...which means my tds is likely a bit higher than that...ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jule
    Would you let your children swim in this pool in the afternoon with low FC levels?
    If FC is below shock, and if FC is above normal minimum FC level, you can see the bottom, and ph is between 7.2-78 it is safe to swim.
    TFP Moderator who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  7. #67
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    My FC at 9:21 this morning was 13
    at 9:58 FC: 11.5
    at 2:34 FC: 5

    My only addition today was one bottle of 12.5% @ 9:am

    My PH tests today have been red, not dark pink. New regent bottle as of yesterday. Prior to this it's been pink, reading about 7.5 /7.6.
    Is it wise or not to lower my PH with the current FC:5 before adding more chlorine?
    This would also lower my TA which is high.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  8. #68
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    How lovely.

    In double checking the regents for the PH test, I've discovered why my PH test is red.
    The regent I bought last week, but first used this morning is R-0004.

    So they gave me the wrong one.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  9. #69
    Senior Member linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Using 1-2 drops of the R-0004 should give you results close to what you would get using the R-0014. The color shade will be the same but the color "depth" or saturation may be slightly different.

    Assuming you still get 7.5, then your ph is not too high, but you could lower it now while your at 5 ppm, to 7.2-7.4...not necessary though.
    TFP Moderator who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  10. #70
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Okay, so then I don't have to take it back to the store. Thanks!
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  11. #71
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    I have passed the OCLT twice now: My pool is clear, but I still have the dark stuff on the bottom.
    I believe I would have passed Tues & Wed night also, but fell asleep both nights while waiting out the hour to do the retest after my last chlorine additions.

    Mon July 9 Tuesday July 10
    10:13 PM 6:15 AM
    FC: 16 FC: 15
    CC: 0 CC: 0


    Thurs July 12 Fri July 13
    9:06 PM 5:40 AM
    FC: 7 FC: 6
    CC: 0 CC: 0

    My FC is under shock level this morning because:

    On Tuesday morning I added 1.75 inches of water. Did not think much of this as the temps been in the high 90's for over a week. Pump has been running 24/7 accept for downtime to rinse filters.

    Wed 5:35 am it was down .5 inches. pump running.
    Thursday 6:17 am it was down one full inch.
    I vacuumed, rinsed filters, and added 2 inches of water. With my FC at 12.5, I left the pump off.
    By 10:20 AM, no pump, the water dropped 1/4 of an inch.
    Wanted to do an evaporation test, so left pump off all day.
    Accept for the dark spots of 'stuff' reappearing on the bottom, still unidentified, the water is clear.

    The evap test from 10:20 to 1:45 showed a loss of about one inch of water, no pump running.

    I'm going to repeat the evap test again today, after I vacuum to verify that result.

    My pool this morning:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  12. #72
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    I have been using 11,400 gallons this past week for my tests. My results are more inline with expected calc levels. Not quite exact, but much closer than the larger gallon numbers have been.

    Regardless of what my second evaporation test returns, there is still the issue of the stuff on the bottom.

    I have read that Black algae is rare in vinyl liners. What I see in my pool doesn't fit the growth pattern of it. How can I know for sure if it is or is not?
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  13. #73
    Senior Member linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jule
    I have read that Black algae is rare in vinyl liners. What I see in my pool doesn't fit the growth pattern of it. How can I know for sure if it is or is not?
    What does it feel like? Can you scrap a little of it off with your finger nail? Black algae will feel slimy and you can typically scrap the "head" off.
    TFP Moderator who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  14. #74
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Okay, well went into the clear pool today before vacuuming. Walked around with one foot through a brush handle. The 'stuff' puffs away with just a swoosh, no rubbing. Worked the same just using a toe.

    So, not black algae, right?

    It disappears with swoosh or a drift. Doesn't float to the top or immediately fall back down somewhere. So it's very tiny stuff.
    Not sand, doesn't feel grainy under my foot. Not slimy under my toe either.

    I didn't reach down to try to touch it once I saw that it just 'dirfts' into nothingness. Seems it would be hard to 'handle or feel' the way it behaves. I just walked around and lightly brushed it away.
    Normally, it vacuums up without rubbing or pressure and until toeing it today, I haven't seen any kind of drift action from it. Vacuum just sucked it up.

    If it were algae, would bits of it float? Some of the 'spots' are the size of a nickel, I'd guess. So plenty large if it were a solid or even semi sold form.

    DH says its probably driveway dust the cartridges are not trapping.

    Any thoughts on this? It's not green, but brownish in color. Looks dark brown on the bottom.

    Aside from collecting in liner divits/pockets, it collects along the edge of the floor seam. Always there. Not sure if the other pockets of stuff are always in the same place or not.

    Regarding cartridges: The extra brand new one I put in on Tuesday is as white as it was when it was new. The other 13 are yellowed.
    Either time to clean them or, replace them? They were brand new.
    I've been using socks in the skimmers so preventing bugs, ants, spider legs and stuff from getting to the cartridges.

    Have not had a frog or toad in my pool in a couple of days now.

    The water is clear, looks great, feels great!
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  15. #75
    Senior Member linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    I would guess it either pollen or possibly dean algae. You could vacuum it up and see if it returns?...maybe you have already done this.
    TFP Moderator who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  16. #76
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Yup, already done the vacuum up thing, every day. Ongoing since 'opening' and clearing cloudy water. It usually returns within an hour or so. Always more of it 'the next morning'. There have been a few days where there is less of it than others, but I haven't been THAT observant as to why that might be.

    Dean algae? Is that a typo?
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

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