TA and CYA numbers?

[jule]

regarding my CYA level:

According to the pool calculator:
12,200 gallons
CYA 0 to 30 pool calc says add 49 oz to get to 30
OR 81 oz to get to 50, OR 90 oz to get to 55 (pool store test)

13,500 gallons
CYA 0 to 30 pool calc says add 54 oz to get to 30


13,900 gallons in my signiture and what I had been using is from the pool calculator "Estimating pool volume"
22 ft wide by 4.9 deep round ignores length.
CYA of 0 to 30, the calculator says to add 56 oz.
CYA of 0 to 45 add 84 oz.

MY CYA ADDITIONS:
Fri 22nd, 45 oz (in skimmer) my last test on 24th, black dot smaller diam, full tube (ordered more regent)
Fri 29th, 18 oz (sock in front of jet) regent came! before this addition, test result under 30 (dot disappears half way between 20 & 30.
Sun 1st, 24 oz (sock in front of jet) under 30 dot disappears half way between 20 & 30.

My Total CYA adds = 87 oz
Based on all my adds, the calc info (won't mention the store test of 55), my CYA should already be between 30 & 50, not under it.
Either my test method is flawed or I have xray vision.

This past Sat night is the only time it passed the overnight shock test, but it didn't on Sunday night. It's been clear to bottom for several days, but still sometimes a greenish tint in places and brown pockets collecting on the bottom.

Sat night 9:50 PM:
FC:21
CC:0

Sun 5:15 AM:
FC:20
CC: .5

Sunday 9:15 PM:
FC: 21
CC: 0

Monday 8:00 AM: (Woke pup late, sun is full on pool at 7:45am)
FC: 17.5
CC: 0

Monday 10:45 pm
FC: 18.5
CC: 0

Tuesday 7:15 am (heavy rain for half hour before I did this test)
FC: 15.5
CC: 0

Sundays Tests:
5:15 am FC: 20
8:38am FC: 15.5
10:05 am FC: 14.5
10:20 am FC: 19.5
11:10 am FC:20
11:20 am FC:17
11:40 am FC: 19.5
12:00pm FC:19
12:20pm FC:18
12:50 pm FC: 14.5
2:25 pm FC:15
4:01pm FC:11.5
5:35 pm FC:14
8:50 pm FC: 16
9:15 pm FC:21

Monday Tests:
8:00 am FC: 15.5
1:53 pm FC: 7.5 (pump off since 8:am, cleaned filters, threats of rain)
7:15 pm FC: 4.5 (overcast, rain/hail pump off)
8:25 pm FC: 4.5 (have not added anything all day)
9:00 pm FC 7.0 (this after adding 2 cups of 10% HTH)
9:40 pm FC 7
10:45 pm FC: 18.5

Tuesday
7:15 am FC: 15.5 (heavy rain before this test)
9:10 am FC: 14.5
11:35 am FC: 11 (added 61 oz after this test)
1:10 pm FC: 10.5 (added 54 oz after this test)
1:46 pm FC: 12.5 (out of chlorine off to store)
5:50 pm FC: 7 (no adds since 1:10 pm)
11:35 pm FC: 6.5 (fell asleep, still without chlorine additions)
1:30 am FC: 5.5 (added 99 oz of 12.5% ~ Crud! forgot to change the calc from 10% to 12.5%. Adjusting this should using 12,200 gallons take my FC between 13 & 14) Will wait, 30 minutes, test, go to bed and report those results in the morning.

My CC level was 1.0 only once, back on Sat morning, June 23rd. All other tests regardless of FC level have been 0 or .5

Happy 4th! No doubt most of you will be in your pools today. I will be too.
Just floating on top, or walking around to stir it up :-D

 

[Leebo]

I'm seeing you like to test......a lot. Slow down on your cya tests. Add an amount and assume its there. The cya, works as soon as its dissolved in the water, but can take up to a week to show up on a test. For now the additions you made may not have showed up yet on the test. The pool calculator says 87oz will raise the cya 47ppm. For now we'll guess a 50ppm CYA level. Wait to test again until Sunday. Your new shock level is 16ppm, keep shooting for this FC mark as you have been doing. Enjoy the floating.....we get to try out our new pool light.

 

[jule]

"I'm seeing you like to test......a lot. " <---- Funny Leebo. :?
I would like nothing more than to get to the once a day test and be done with it.

This morning's numbers:
5:24 am FC:16.5 CC:0
It was only 3.5 hours since my night test, so
at 6:40 am FC: 14 CC:0
I rinsed the filters, vacuumed the walls and the bottom and tested again at 7:25 FC: 13.5 CC:0


I am going to continue using 12,200 gallons for volume. It seems to be closer to pool calc numbers when I play with it, as Jensen suggested.
At least until I can determine there is a better volume number to use.
If interested, this is what I created when trying to figure that out.

I will shoot for FC 16 for the next two days and wait until Sunday for another CYA test.
Thanks for your input!! :-D :-D :-D

 

[linen]

I get 13200 gallons using equation for octagon area and average depth of 4.45.

 

[jule]

oh linen, Thanks! I will experiment with those numbers in the calculator today.
~ I've been searching the web for a formula for octagon, but have only found the common circle, etc. The grecian formula I found on line seemed incredibly high. Can you post the formula for me? Or link to where the calculator is?

 

[linen]

Area of an octagon =~3.3137085*r^2 where r is the "short" radius of the pool (half the diameter from flat to flat).

So volume would be = 7.48*4.45*3.3137085*(22/2)^2=13350 gallons

 

[Leebo]

Ya, I don't understand either.

 

[jule]

And that would be why W x L X D is used. Thanks!
I am copying it for reference and about ready to see the FC result of 13,200 in the calc.

 

[jule]

My morning activity. This is why I have to test so much. Following the calc numbers for new pool volume of 13,200, I cannot get up to FC 16. Two additions of 12.% total of 46 oz, according to the calc should have taken it to FC 16 and have not.
It is partly sunny. Not at all like direct sun over the weekend.

 

[Leebo]

At 11:50 you were at 14 and added 12% bleach. 20 minutes later your FC level went down?? That's not right.

Can you explain the steps you do for the test?

 

[jule]

I do the tests according to the directions in the TF test kit.


Outdoor temps have been in the 90's. Today's the first time in 10 years it registered on my car at 100 degrees. 102 at one point. So it's hot, direct sun for six hours or more on my pool. That's going to eat up chlorine, I know.

My concern is the amount it's been eating up. In two weeks there was only one night the FC dropped by only 1.
The water has been clear to the bottom for many days now. However, something continues to collect in pockets across the floor within an hour after I vacuum.
It vacuums up easily. Using force without vacuum it disappears but there's no puff of dust, no dispersing cloud, no floating anything.
Also there are times when I can detect an extremely faint grayish? color in areas on the bottom. It's so faint I wonder if I imagine it, yet to my eye, the vacuum leaves a clean sweep through it.

I found another thread in here: "Algae or Just Pollen and or Dirt?" where others have a very similar issue.
I know what I have is not pollen. We have pine trees, so I know what that looks like in the pool.
The night before last I tried one posters tip about putting socks over the jets. Was only able to keep one on overnight and most of the day. I couldn't really detect much inside the sock, but it seemed there was less 'stuff' on the bottom. However...my husband decided to powerwash the fence yesterday afternoon and wasn't as careful about not letting any of the water run into the pool, so needless to say there was definitely debris to be vacuumed from that. I haven't had a chance to try it again, but I will.

With some exceptions most of the past two weeks, my FC has been over 15, many times over 20. Despite the discrepancy between my continued CYA readings of under 30 and a recent pool store result of 55, the shock level on my pool shouldn't be over 20, yet the most noticeable difference in clarity came after one night I had it up to 33 and definitely smelled the "chlorine death smell". Was a little panicked by it, but it dropped to 20 by early morning.

I've had several issues this year, one continues to be getting the correct volume of my pool in the calculator. Additions that should return an FC on an expected number according to gallons entered do not.

I posted earlier about TDS = Total Dissolved Solids. It seems the concensus here is not to be concerned with it. Yet I have read that a very high TDS number can reduce the effectiveness of chlorine and cause damage to equipment. One cause of high TDS, from what I've read about it, can be salt crystal build up over years from sodium hypochlorite that generally becomes an issue in 'old water' from pools or spas that are not replenished with fresh water. High TDS has never been an issue as we drain better than half our pool each winter.

I am concerned about it after today.........
I've been wondering if the 'stuff' collecting on the bottom might be metals in the pool water, specifically rust. The system is old, the high chlorine might be corrosive enough? In fact the filter canister developed a pinhole leak this past Saturday that my husbands "Nascar Duct Tape" stopped. A temporary fix until he can take it down and weld it. The stuff on the bottom was collecting before that, so may or may not be related.

I cannot test for metals. Two of the pools stores I get related stuff from do not test for it. The guy who fixed our pump this spring and had been our pool guy until then is the only one I know who does. I don't wish to deal with him anymore, but really wanted that test done.
I took him a water sample today and asked him to test for metals for me.

He did find a copper level of .05 <---This would affect my own CH testing. Nice.
He also said the trouble with my water is that it's OLD. The TDS is 2500.
We drain half way in the winter.

The highest acceptable level on his test sheet is 2000. Two other stores have acceptable levels <2500. His comment was that "the health department would close it down". He said we'd have to drain it, BUT! he wanted a test sample of our source water to be sure that wasn't the issue. I asked if we could do a partial drain. His reply was the same, wanting a source water sample. I suppose that's practical as he can't recommend treatment without being sure the source is good.

I'm pretty sure it's not our source well water. In Feb of 2011 we had our well pump replaced. I have the document from the company that tested it afterwards stating that the water passed. It tastes as great as it always has, if that matters.

Anyway...I was not happy about the possibility of draining the pool. My husband said no drain, although if I do it, he'll live with it.
I Googled TDS on the info and found an article that discusses TDS and the 'controversy' over it among pool suppliers, the changing standards for acceptable levels now with a majority of pool owners using chlorine for sanitation which will increase TDS levels in the water, etc.

According to the article I read, the industry standard is edging up to 3000, which makes my level, far from ideal, but still okay. So, I feel a little relieved that although mine level is 2500, according to 'pool pro', it may still be safe to swim in. This is not some college kid, but a pool contractor in business for 30 years. Although I've been happy in the past with their service, I'm not altogether sure I should trust him, after the fiasco with our pump motor & filter order this year.

I do not have a clue, if the 'stuff' on the pool bottom is the contributing factor to the high TDS or not.
What I do know is that the water is clear to the bottom, sparkles in the sun, feels 'squeaky' clean and when I walk around in it, the bottom does not feel slimy or gritty.
The liner is from 2000. It's been fading since 2009, most significantly in the past two years. Nearly solid light blue now. I'm sure the chlorine amounts are adding to that.
The sand beneath it has shifted so there are pockets throughout the bottom. We cannot replace and redo until next year.

Our youngest son is getting married in August. Our daughter and her girls will be with us on the 22nd for two weeks for the event. It will be their first summer visit to our home and are excited about the pool. So I am hoping to get and keep it running for them to swim safely.

Any thoughts on this TDS issue specifically. I've no idea if I can get it tested from another source without incurring a high expense for the test. What would you do? Anyone?
The link to the TDS article is here: http://ppoa.org/pdfs/What%20is%20the%20 ... Solids.pdf

Aside from sodium build up, there was a mention of other 'contaminants' and 'phantome chlorimines' but didn't specify what those might be. Any ideas what those might include?

 

[jule]

Contractors full test results:
FC: 2.0 My FC from same sample time was 10.5
PH: 7.8 My PH: 7.8
TA: 160 MY TA: 190-200
Calcium:80 MY CH: 112


My CYA this morning was 30.
Copper: 0.5 (I will be changing how I do my test with this knowledge)
TDS: 2500

 

[linen]

TDS: 2500

Ignore this. The article you linked to is spot on. Having a number for TDS does you no good since you do not know what it is. Most likely much of it is salt, which is fine for your pool.

FC: 2.0 My FC from same sample time was 10.5

How long was the sample taken from the pool when the contractor tested it? How did he/she do the test? I would trust your own numbers. One thought I had about the variability you are showing in some of you FC results could be due to not having enough dpd powder. How much are you using? At high FC levels, you might need two scoops, or the test will read low.

I've been wondering if the 'stuff' collecting on the bottom might be metals in the pool water, specifically rust.

Can you/have you collect some of this stuff? Is it slimy or gritty?

Since you are still loosing more than 1 ppm of FC in the OCLT, you need to continue the shock process. You could up your target FC level so you continue to stay above the shocking level almost all the time. Since you want to speed this up, I would switch over to the levels in the chlorine/cya chart, so your shock level at 50 ppm should be 20 ppm FC.

 

[jule]

TDS: 2500

Ignore this. The article you linked to is spot on. Having a number for TDS does you no good since you do not know what it is. Most likely much of it is salt, which is fine for your pool.

FC: 2.0 My FC from same sample time was 10.5

How long was the sample taken from the pool when the contractor tested it? How did he/she do the test? I would trust your own numbers. One thought I had about the variability you are showing in some of you FC results could be due to not having enough dpd powder. How much are you using? At high FC levels, you might need two scoops, or the test will read low.

It's aprox a 45 minute drive to that store. As I said he uses regents and physically tests. He was busy when I got there, so I left the sample as requested and returned about an hour later. He had it done. So, considering I had the air on in my car, but it was 100 degrees outside and the sample sat for probably an hour minimum before it was tested, possibly longer....
How long after it's taking from the pool makes it 'old'. I do my tests right away. In fact it something occurs and it sits for even 15 minutes I will dump it and take a fresh one.

As far as the dpd powder...It do heaping. Hard to tell if there always the same heaping though isn't it? I was told that too much of it won't 'be used' or dissolved and that's not an issue. After adding the powder, my sample is bright red, if that matters.

I've been wondering if the 'stuff' collecting on the bottom might be metals in the pool water, specifically rust.

Can you/have you collect some of this stuff? Is it slimy or gritty?

I have not tried to collect 'the stuff' or touch it. That would mean going full under the water to get to it. I color my hair. My sons wedding is in three weeks. At present, I'm not sure what that would do to my hair, so I haven't been under the water.
Since it's been clear to the bottom, I have only been in it twice myself. To walk around, scrub the walls, brush the bottom.
My husband has dove in maybe three times this week to cool off. He's not in for longer than 15 minutes. ~ And he covers his own gray balding head with a baseball cap, so vanity doesn't concern him. :lol: I imagine that would be a different matter if it all turned green or fell out though.

No other activity in the pool, other than frogs jumping in at night and end up dead in the skimmer basket.
Oh, and this morning a salamander. I thought it was dead when I saw it. Didn't want to vacuum it up, so I left it in until I could get it out with the net. It wasn't dead in the water. It lived for maybe a half hour on the cement after I took it out.



Since you are still loosing more than 1 ppm of FC in the OCLT, you need to continue the shock process. You could up your target FC level so you continue to stay above the shocking level almost all the time. Since you want to speed this up, I would switch over to the levels in the chlorine/cya chart, so your shock level at 50 ppm should be 20 ppm FC.

Please see my filter photo! This difference between the new one and the current is 15 days.
Aside from the yellow coloration, the fading of the bands, there is notciable fraying on the outside of some of the pleats.

I've also included an image of yesterdays testing. What I find odd is the difference between the FC loss with the filter running and not running.

 

[jule]

More photos:
And I DO vacuum to waste several times before vacking to filters. 14 of them are pricey. My water is free.
The yellow color is what prompted me to take a water sample to the pool contractor.
Wasn't sure if the coloring was due to the chlorine or metals in the water.
It does not rinse away.

(The dark spots in the black squares of the pool photo after I vacuumed it are on my camera lense, not in the water.

9:45 AM FC:15 (no additions between these tests)
11:45 AM FC: 10

 

[linen]

Those filters look really small. Do you know the filter area? How often are you having to clean them?

The color looks like iron to me.

 

[jule]

Filter size:
P/N = T360 Unicel Red Top ( Sun Valley, CA)
2 & 11/16 diameter - 9 11/16 length.
Nominal area: 6 sq ft each. Nominal mirons 20.

They are the only thing that fits in the filter canister. It requires 14 of them.

With a perfect pool, I rinse them once a week.
At present, I rinse them a MINIMUM of every other day.

The Harmsco Betterfilter is : 84GPM, 50PSI, Run by a 1HP Hayward Super pump.
With the exception maybe 12 hours in 2 weeks, the pump has been running continuously accept when I am rinsing the cartridges.

With a perfect pool, the pump is only run at night or sometimes if there are swimmers. Electricity costs 3 times as much during the day and I'm not looking forward to the bill this time around.

The contractors test for metals was no iron content. Copper .05.

 

[jule]

What is his gain by telling me no iron, but TDS of 2500?

It getting iron out a cheaper issue?

 

[jule]

These are my pool test so far today. As I mentioned ...yesterday chlorine loss without the pump running under direct afternoon sun in 100 degree weather was LESS than when it does run in the same time frame.

My test at 11:45 AM today was FC:10 CC:0

 

[linen]

TDS must be drained/refilled, Iron can be sequestered with a chemical (though a drain and refill with iron free water is also an option). Your copper level should be fine.

He could justify charging a lot more for a drain/refill, then adding a sequestrant.

Your filter size is a bit small at 84 sq. ft. so it will require more frequent cleaning, which of course would be quite often while clearing a pool. I can't imagine having to clean all 14 everyday

If you ever get a new filter we would recommend a minimum of 200 sq. ft. cartridge filter.