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Thread: TA and CYA numbers?

  1. #21
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Guess I should rephrase my question.

    Based on the numbers on the No-SWG chlorine target chart in the pool school, CYA to Target FC, what could one reasonably expect to loose in say, one hour of direct sun?
    Example: CYA of 30 with Taget FC of 4 and everything else also at target.

    The reason I ask is because, the past two days, if my FC drops below 20, my CC is 0.
    Above 20, then CC is .5, which indicates to me that there is still stuff in my pool, as it's not clear yet.

    It also suggests that the CYA that I added last week is finally "present" and would give me a reading if I had the regent to test it. I am waiting for that delivery.

    During the daytime, with full sun on my pool, my FC drops 2ppm every hour, sometimes more. Overnight, it's been dropping significantly. Last night shows a FC drop of 6 in a 7 hour period. Would this happen if their really were a high amount of CYA in the pool? or ANY CYA in the pool?

    I cannot currently test for CYA. Waiting for regent order to arrive. My own tests last week when I had some, where reading a half sized dot in a full tube, yet the store test the week before said it was 20. So I really have no idea right now how much is in there. If there is none, then high FC losses, daytime or nightime, make sense. If there IS some, then high FC losses especially at night don't make sense to me. Some of my chlorine should be holding, should it not? The pool is blue, can see bits of dark stuff here and there on the bottom, which I think drops down there after I have already vacuumed. However the water is not clear enough to see the design on the floor of the pool.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  2. #22
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Full direct sun in Wisconsin is completely different than full direct sun in South Alabama, so there's not really an average loss in one or two hours. Per day (24 hours) you should aim for losing about 2 ppm.

    ETA: I see that you're shocking so your loss is going to be higher than normal because your FC is higher than normal.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    You can stop SLAMing your pool when you pass the OCLT (You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & You have .5ppm CC's or less) & your water is clear.

  3. #23
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    You've got something that chlorine is reacting with in your pool. That's why you have the overnight chlorine loss that is high. CC is not always a good indicator because if chlorine oxidizes whatever it is completely, then it may not form Combined Chlorine (CC) long enough for there to be enough for you to measure. Focus on the chlorine loss by maintaining shock level until you get through whatever it is that's in your pool causing this chlorine demand. If there were physical debris for you to remove, then that would speed up the process rather than have chlorine try and get rid of it all, but I assume you did that already.

    The loss you are seeing per hour during the day is mostly what you are seeing at night and is mostly chlorine oxidizing whatever is making your pool cloudy/murky. There is also the loss from sunlight which at a 30 ppm CYA is going to be relatively high at perhaps 70-80% or so of the FC level so when shocking that's a higher loss. If the CYA level were higher, you'd have a lower loss, but you'd need a higher FC level for the same rate of shocking (net FC loss during the day would be somewhat lower). For example, shocking at 12 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA may lose 9.6 ppm from sunlight while 20 ppm FC with 50 ppm CYA may lose 9 ppm while 32 ppm FC with 80 ppm CYA may lose 8 ppm.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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  4. #24
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Thank you both. Knowing that helps. I expect loss to sunlight but the jump in the chlorine demand had me concerned about the CYA/chlorine levels. I will feel better when I can test the CYA, know for sure where it's at, and add chlorine accordingly. When I began my attack, I vacuumed to waste and then my CC level was never over 1.0 and mostly .5 or 0. so I was thinking that FC between 12 & 15 was working. The chlorine demand jumped up on Sunday and created brain fog on top of water fog.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  5. #25
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Hello I'm back! Been working on this and while it IS getting clearer, I'm still not passing the overnight test. Argh!
    Friday Night 11:00 PM numbers:
    FC:20
    CC:.5
    during the day Ph was at 7.2
    TA was ranging 170 -200. (Pending my judgement on color change) It's been 170-180 all week.
    CH: 110 (+/- 10 all week)
    CYA: Still less than 20. I'd guess about 15 if it went that far on the tube Was finally able to measure CYA late yesterday.

    Sat 7:00 AM:
    FC: 14
    CC: .5 (just barely pink)
    PH: 8.2
    TA: 160
    CH: 120-130 (again pending color change)
    CYA: <20

    Sat 9:20 AM
    FC:10
    CC:.5 (again just barely pink)
    PH: 7.4 initially but after sitting for a few minutes it was bright red.


    June25th photo was taken late afternoon, no direct sun, so appears bluer.
    June 30th early morning sun.

    My observations:
    It is clearing, as you can see in the photos. There are times when I look at it and think I can detect greenish 'haze' spots on the bottom. The 'stuff' on the bottom in the one pic is what I would liken to dirt, OR algae that's dying and settled? Not quite dead, as it's not white? My DH has been in and out only twice to get wet/cool off, so there's been no activity or rain to attribute to the stuff on the bottom.

    The biggest changes in clarity I've seen occur only when my FC is up over 22 which I've done at night before bed a time or two. One night it was at 33, OMG!! (please no tomatoes!) I know it shouldn't be that high, but honestly then I could smell the chlorine smell associated with 'dead' algae/stuff. And the next morning showed the biggest improvement.

    On the flip side, either there is dead algae glued to my pool bottom, or it's calcium build up, or the liner has faded.
    The liner was meant to be replaced this year and the sand bottom reworked anyway, but has been put off until next year, so I'm not all that concerned about the fading, if that's the case.
    The other two are a concern though. I was in it two days ago after vacuuming, walking around. Most of the area felt clean, but there were a few spots that felt gritty. Calcium?

    The pic of the filters is after normal hose rinsing. Yellow won't come off that way. So time to clean?
    In the past, I've reused previous years filters. DH didn't keep them from 2011.
    New filters after opening get me through the summer with good hosing.
    These need to be cleaned? so....

    I bought a small bottle of liquid Cascade, is that okay to use, rather than powder? Powder boxes all had scented additives.
    If I can use that, then it's soak in a pale of Cascade and water, rinse, rinse, rinse, then soak in MA? Yes?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  6. #26
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    As noted in Defeating Algae, you need to brush your pool during the shocking process. Does your inground pool have a functioning floor drain? Did you inspect your cartridge filter to see that it didn't have any serious tears/holes in it that would prevent proper filtration?
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  7. #27
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    I have been brushing. Bottom & walls.
    I forgot to add the photo of my filters after rinsing them this morning, so here it is. This morning is the first time I've seen this
    yellowish color on them which doesn't want to rinse away, at least not so easily with just the hose.
    I rinse them EVERY day, sometimes twice a day.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  8. #28
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    So long as the filter is still getting dirty, it's collecting what is in the pool. Your pool is nearly 14,000 gallons, but that filter doesn't look particularly big. You say there are 14 cartridges so is what you are showing 1 of 2 assemblies? If the pool doesn't continue to clear or you get impatient and don't care about spending more money then a high quality clarifier would be a last resort (GLB Clear Blue, for example). I just get the sense that your filter/circulation isn't working very well since it is capturing what is in the pool but not very quickly.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  9. #29
    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Found you Jule.......now let's get your pool clean too!

    The first thing I'm seeing from your thread is somewhat a lack of trust in yourself. I myself find it easiest to brake down one issue my pool is going through and focus on that. At this point....your #1 issue is a low CYA level. Have you got your new reagent in yet to do your own testing? Can you please post a current set of test results for us to look at? If you were able to convert from a baquacil pool, then there's NO reason you can't clean up this mess.

  10. #30
    Senior Member linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    Full direct sun in Wisconsin is completely different than full direct sun in South Alabama
    Yes, one is much closer to copious amounts of cheese
    TFP Moderator who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  11. #31
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    I just got home from the pool store, (to replenish kit regents and chlorine supply). Will post my results in a few minutes. Am starving! Going to dig through the cool frig for a quick bite of cheese.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  12. #32
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Okay, here I my test results. My number one issue is the correct volume of pool water. This has been a long term problem in getting the levels all correct.
    So, the right way to determine that for a 22 foot diameter octagon, average depth of 4' 6" would be appreciated.

    I had the pool store do a water test using the volume I've been using throughout the past 3 or 4 days, just to see what their CYA would be. (it was 55!)
    After entering average depth. She asked what the deep end was. Okay, so I'm anal, there is no deep end.

    Test at 5:50 PM
    FC: 7
    CC: 0
    PH: 7.5
    TA: 170
    CH: 130

    This is my activity for the day :
    [attachment=2:raqb18ks]Picture 2.png[/attachment:raqb18ks]


    Current pool 6pm -July 3rd. The dark spots on the bottom are either some form of algae (dark brownish) or dust/dirt, whatever. The pattern in the liner has faded so barely visible in some spots. Supposed to be replaced, but has been shelved this year.
    I can vacuum the bottom clean, but within an hour they return. Dropping from the water or not caught in the filter. Usually after a rain this will happen, but not after a vacuum job.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  13. #33
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    Full direct sun in Wisconsin is completely different than full direct sun in South Alabama
    Yes, one is much closer to copious amounts of cheese
    MMMM .... I do miss me some fresh cheese curds
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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  14. #34
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    These results are from the pool store test today, which I mainly wanted to know what they got for CYA. Also wanted them to test for metals...its well water.
    They use strips...yuk. My old pool store did manual testing. This place does not test for TDS either.

    These are their test numbers form this afternoon:
    Sat Index 0.7
    CYA: 55
    Total Chlorine: 7.5
    Free Chlorine: 7.5
    PH: 8.1
    Total Alk: 138
    Total Hardness: 208
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  15. #35
    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    TDS reading is all but meaningless here. I honestly have NO idea even what it is. No worries. I'd also trust your own tests over any pool store, especially with them using strips.

  16. #36
    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Were you able to test your own cya levels.

  17. #37
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Ordinarily I do not concern myself with TDS (total disolved solids) because we drain the pool about half in the winter and have never gotten high readings in previous years.
    However, I've added an excessive amount of chlorine these past few weeks, and the reading from the pool store states that its high.
    The pool calculator will too, depending on what gallon volume I enter.

    This is information about TDS:
    ____________________________________
    Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) is a measurement of the total amount of matter (minerals, chemical residue, and other particles) that remains in water. The primary contributing factor that leads to TDS is evaporation. As water evaporates, only the water itself evaporates. Minerals, chemical residue, and other particles are left behind and remain in the pool water. With evaporation, you need to continually add water. As you add tap water up to the standard operating water level (half way up the skimmer), you are also adding additional minerals and particles. Although these minerals and other particles from tap water do add to the TDS reading, it is extremely minimal. The biggest factor is that this new tap water will soon be introduced to chemicals. It is the chemical residue that is not filtered and remains in the pool water that has the greatest effect on increasing TDS. Whenever chemicals are added, the TDS reading will increase.

    The process of evaporation is continuous. As water evaporates, matter within it is left behind and will remain in the water. Eventually, this matter that remains in the pool water will act as a sponge, consuming your new chemicals, rendering them virtually ineffective. It will take many years (approximately 6-8 years) for the TDS reading to become so high that it will consume your chemicals before they can engage in their intended purpose; 6-8 years is a guideline only. Click HERE for a TDS chart.

    There is no chemical that can lower the TDS reading into an ideal range. Rather, a TDS reading can only be lowered by draining your pool, either partially or completely, and adding fresh water. If it has been some time since your pool was last drained and cleaned, there are certain indicators that may tell you that your TDS reading has probably reached or surpassed its maximum parameters:

    Continual addition of excess chemicals.
    Water chemistry tests fine, but water is still not clean, clear, blue and sparkling. Various water chemistry problems include:
    Colored yet clear water (the water has an odd tint, but you can still see the pool floor).
    Algae growth despite a good chlorine (or its alternative) reading and proper overall water chemistry (pH and Alkalinity).
    Varying and false readings on chemical tests.
    If any of these are the case with your pool, or if other water chemistry issues arise, despite the continual testing and addition of chemicals, the TDS reading has either met or exceeded the maximum. Again, you can only lower TDS by draining the pool, either partially or completely. Poolmanual.com recommends that you contract your local pool professionals and pay them to perform a drain and clean, it really is more of an investment than a service call.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  18. #38
    Senior Member jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo
    Were you able to test your own cya levels.
    Oops, I did test, it's on the chart I posted above the photos.
    CYA: just under 30 Sorry, forgot to add it with the other results.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  19. #39
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    The largest component of TDS is salt -- sodium chloride. It's not an important number unless it gets really, really high (remember that saltwater chlorine generator pools are at 3000 ppm). What is important is what TDS is composed of such as Cyanuric Acid (CYA), Calcium Hardness (CH) and Total Alkalinity (TA). The sodium chloride salt is the least important component of TDS.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  20. #40
    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    The first thing I'd suggest is raising your CYA level up to 40. The shock level will go up to 15, but you'll find it much easier to keep chlorine in the pool. With the summer heat and the sun being a pain this year the FC's need all the help they can get.

    The next thing I'd look at is your FC level. At 7ppm you are well under shock level. Keep adding chlorine anytime you can until your water clears up. Brush anytime you get the chance to as well. At a 30CYA level, your FC needs to stay above 13 at all times. This is allowing the monsters in your pool to come back to life and reform. If your filter can't catch all the dead stuff....just zap them into nothing.

    As Chem Geek stated as well....if you're passing the OCLT on a daily basis, then maybe flock would be worth giving a shot. When was the last time you tried the OCLT?? Did you pass??

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