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Thread: TA and CYA numbers?

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    jule's Avatar
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    TA and CYA numbers?

    Help ~ I'm confused about what steps to take now.
    I posted new photos and a few questions in a thread about 'critters in the pool' but have not had a response. Maybe no ones looking at it, as I found the answer to that original question?

    Took pump motor in for repair on April 7th. At the time, pool hadn't been filled, was relatively clear to see yuk on the bottom. Considering the motor was only supposed to take a week to fix, several days later I filled the pool for two reasons. To warm up the water and compensate for loss when it came time to vac to waste.

    Regret that now, but too late.

    The motor repair was a hastle, every week I was told it would be next week, the part they needed wasn't in yet.
    Long story and not really relevant at the moment.

    In the meantime, he told me to add bleach to keep it from getting green (greener). I was, but it got away from me after I filled the pool. (Waiting for the pump)

    Through the ordeal I've been getting confusing test results.

    June 20, had the pool store do a test when I got liquid shock. Their results:
    CYA=20
    FC=.7
    Total Chlorine=1.2
    PH= >8
    TA=150 Adjusted TA=144
    Hardness= 188


    Using Taylor test kit, but with last years chemicals my results yesterday were:
    FC=13.5
    CC=.5
    TA=160-170
    CH=80
    CYA= zero
    PH=7.2

    I had vacuumed to waste initially and when stuff didn't end up in the pump basket I switch to filtering.
    Pool has been cloudy. This morning after vacuuming though filters and getting lots of crud on them, I switched and vacuumed to waste again, and topped back up the water level...two inches maybe. Added a gallon of shock after a zero reading.

    So at 12:30 today my tests are:

    FC=7.5
    CC=.5
    TC=8
    TA = 200
    PH = 7.4-7.5
    CYA= circle is half it's diameter with full tube.


    I am concerned that the pool store got a CYA reading and I'm not able to.
    And the TA is rising.
    What to do?

    Pool is cloudy but bluish.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Don't trust the pool store results, especially CYA.

    With the dot partially obscured, there's some CYA in there. Otherwise it'd look like clear water.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Your CYA test results are all consistent with CYA being around 10 to 20. CYA tests are +-15 and can read levels as high as 20 as zero.

    I suggest you add 30 ppm of CYA. That will raise CYA into the recommended range of 30 to 50.

    Meanwhile, continue shocking.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    CYA lower limit of testing is about 20 depending on the test from what I have read. If you get zero and they get 20 that's not so far fetched. Also with the Taylor you see some CYA (partially obscured dot) so you aren't at "zero" but you aren't measuring a readable amount right?

    How does the Pool Store test? No matter what they use there are reasons they could be inaccurate - old chemicals, poor calibration, bad chems, lousy training, etc.

    The TA being between 160-170 and then 200 isn't a very large rise and could be within the limits of the test precision. If you look here: extended-test-kit-directions-t25081.html?hilit=extended test there is a lot of additional information on the testing that tells you things like the fact that the TA test is good for about +/- 10% precision when used with > 10 drops. Assume for the moment that the actual value is 182. That could read as low as 164 and as high as 200. If it KEEPS rising beyond 200 then maybe you should worry - but at the moment you're within the test's precision level.

    What to do? Go to Pool School and read up on shocking (pool-school/shocking_your_pool) - check your results and be sure to read what the criteria are for stopping shock. You might also adjust the pump run time. I have crystal clear water when only a week ago I had a mild algae bloom. I went BBB but used some algaecide before reading about BBB and then because I wanted higher CYA than the 20 or so I had I used Dichlor to help raise the FC and the CYA during my initial shocking. Later I went to bleach only but at that time it was helpful to do both and I already owned the bags of dichlor.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Thank you all for your input! I'm frustrated from being behind due to the pump motor repair.
    Have over 350.00 into it's still cloudy, and have to buy more.

    I added an initial dose of algaecide last week so it didn't go green again, and two more ounces two nights ago. Was that a mistake?

    Honestly, if it weren't for my granddaughters spending two weeks here in August, I would close it up completely.
    Every year since our kids left the roost, my DH has 'suggested' a dirt fill. It hasn't happened because of occasional weekends when kids and other grandchildren come to swim.
    This is the first season I've actually been tempted to allow it, with visions of a nice large patio in it's place.

    I've been reading NickiBelle's thread. "HELP i'm in a complete mess and don't know which way to turn"
    She has the about the same size pool as mine.
    It's a great thread and no doubt more fun to read than it has been for her to work through. I do admire her perserverance!

    I do know once it clears, it's all worth it, but it's getting there that's hard.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Assuming the algaecide isn't copper based it probably isn't all that bad from what I have read. The real problem - I THINK - is that people use these things too much and end up with too much of certain minerals and chemicals rather than taking the time to understand the actual chemistry. I started out a week ago with a mild algae bloom and dumped in 14 oz of Green Algaecide and have not had too much of a problem getting nearly all the way to BBB without any hiccups.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Your signature shows you have been using Baquacil for the last 6 years? Are you converting to chlorine?

    If so then you need to follow the conversion process here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-...ine_conversion

    If you are converting, then let us know and we will move your thread to the baqua forum to avoid confusion.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Oh sorry. No Baqua ~ I converted two years ago. I will change that when I get back from buying Walmart bleach.

    Last time I was in a pool store, getting shock, the woman ahead of me was buying Baqua products. I was soooo tempted to tell her not to do it. haha.
    It worked fine for me the first 4 or 5 years I used it. Seemed to make maintenance easier in that the pool didn't require daily attention and water was softer. But after several years of using it, it just wouldn't keep the pool clear anymore. Getting it all of out the pool, despite that we drain down in the fall, was a royal pain.

    One thing I have been wondering about is using flock to settle the tiny white particles I see in the water? Beneficial or not?
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    phew... you had me worried there

    As for the flock, continue shocking for now without it. Once you pass the OCLT and your CC<0.5 ppm, then the flock might speed things up a little, but it would be wasted before you pass those criteria.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Gotcha ~ no flocking now. Thanks ~

    The last CYA treatment was a Bioguard product. Walmart has HTH product. Never used HTH brand before. Mixing the brands shouldn't be an issue, right?
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  11. Back To Top    #11
    linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    A long as they are both cyanuric acid.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Getting somewhere today! Beginning to see the third step and ladder bottom. Yeah!
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

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    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    ~Happy Monday~

    This is a pic of my pool yesterday and my weekend activity.

    I have one jet pointing up, so aerating? - The reason for the ph increase this morning?

    Other than vacuuming and rinsing filters, are there any thoughts, suggestions, to do's, until my regent arrives and I can know for sure what my CYA level is? Even so, I have powder form CYA product, so it may not even show accurate for a week or so.

    Should I be keeping my shock level up higher, even though my CC has been at .5 or 0?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jule
    I have one jet pointing up, so aerating? - The reason for the ph increase this morning?
    Maybe or it could be your higher TA...either way focus on the shocking process for now.

    Has your cya left your sock yet (if you used the sock method)? If it has assume it is in the pool and adjust up your FC level accordingly.

    If you can, attempt to stay at (or maybe slightly above if you need to) your FC level, it will speed the process up.

    Nice job on the chart!
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  15. Back To Top    #15
    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    On June 20 pool store tested CYA @ 20. Since then I had vacuumed to waste, added about 2-3 inched of fresh water, so probably lost some CYA.
    I readded only half the pool calc recommended amount as I wasn't sure any longer what it was at. My tests have been reading half sized dot at full tube. Wasn't sure of the reliability of the store tests...they used strips!!!
    I didn't want to add full calc suggestion levels when shocking that much or I'd have to keep that level of chlorine all the time. Isn't that right?

    I didn't use the sock method. Directions said add to skimmer and not to backwash for 48 hrs. Can't backwash with my system. But have rinsed cartridges every day, sometimes twice a day, so am lowering CYA when I do that? I would think it wouldn't be much, but don't know.

    When I add more, I will use the sock method or just pay more for liquid for quicker results.

    Hopefully my CYA regent will come today or tomorrow, so I know where I'm at with the CYA.
    Off to get more bleach.
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  16. Back To Top    #16
    linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jule
    I didn't use the sock method. Directions said add to skimmer and not to backwash for 48 hrs. Can't backwash with my system. But have rinsed cartridges every day, sometimes twice a day, so am lowering CYA when I do that? I would think it wouldn't be much, but don't know.
    I like it in a sock in front of the return, so that backwashing and cleaning is not an issue. Did you add it to a sock that you put in the skimmer, or directly in the skimmer? Next time you add, I would recommend putting it in a sock in front of the water returning to the pool.

    It is possible that some of the cya was still in your filter and you washed it out. Since you added the cya on Friday, then I would wait till ~Wednesday and check it again and adjust from there. For your FC shocking level, assume it is all in there...so for now I would assume cya level of 30 ppm.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  17. Back To Top    #17
    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Will do ~ Thanks. It's frustrating but continues to improve. Just did a test again after rinsing filters and bleach addition. Can see a darker spot under the ladder, ~ always a tough spot to vacuum up.

    BTW - if anyone can recommend a really good brush, I'm all ears. The ones they sell at local pool stores for vinyl liners (blue handle, white bristles) don't last. I loose bristles in the pool. I've been just using my vacuum head even when not vacuuming.

    I have a Linman wonder mop for my house floors. Bought a new mop head for it yesterday. Was thinking to try that in the pool, but not sure if the high chlorine level would shred it up. Sure don't want to add to 'cloudy microns' in the water. Any thoughts on that?
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  18. Back To Top    #18
    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Drat ~

    Still waiting for my CYA test regent, but I'm beginning to think the level is higher than 30!! From Friday through Sunday I was getting CC readings of .5 even with FC levels between 1.5 & 13.0 throughout. Sunday afternoon, my CC's were 0 but I didn't keep my FC up beyond 7 during direct sun. My highest FC recorded on Monday was 12.5 with 0 CC's.
    Monday night, I switched to 12.5% liquid shock. Added 3 bottles, way overkill, I know, ended up with an FC of 33!!!!! The thing is, THAT's the only time I've smelled chlorine, which from what I've read on other threads is the smell of dead stuff. Pool is less cloudy that yesterday, but.....

    These are my numbers today, Tuesday:
    5:00 AM
    FC:20 CC: .5

    7:00 AM (after brushing the walls & no sun on it yet))
    FC:20 CC: 1

    7:30 - rinsed filters

    8:35 AM
    FC: 13
    CC: 0
    PH: 7.5
    TA: 180
    CH: 100 - 110
    (after this test I vacuumed and added one gallon of 12.5 shock - calculator only called for half that, but over the last two sunny days my FC drops roughly 2pts in an hour and a half)

    10:30 AM
    FC: 20
    CC: .5

    So.... if I need that higher level of FC, then my CYA has to be more than 30?
    And any FC under 20 is no longer doing anything. Correct?
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  19. Back To Top    #19
    jule's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    I have a question. Anyone?
    If for example the pool was perfect, water crystal clear, all tests at target for the pool, is there an average rate of chlorine loss in one or two hours with pool under full direct sun?
    22 ft octagon, inground, 4 ft ave depth - figured @ 11,400 gallons, well water
    Steel walls with sand bottom and vinyl liner : under full sun
    Harmsco Betterfilter w/14 paper cartridges
    1 hp Hayward motor

    Baqua to Chlorine in 2010.

    ~Wisconsin~

  20. Back To Top    #20
    linen's Avatar
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    Re: TA and CYA numbers?

    Hard to say since each pool is different. At low cya levels this loss will be higher. Some pools loose up to 40-60% ppm of FC per day due to sun and organics.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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