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Thread: TFP Water Balance Adviser

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    JesseWV's Avatar
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    TFP Water Balance Adviser

    So I was thinking back to the time before I found this site. Back then I foolishly decided to use Aqua Chem's "Dip Click and Swim" adviser once or twice before I saw the light. It allows you to enter the current test strip readings and advises you what you need to buy and add to get your water "balanced."

    I've come a long way since then. For fun I've entered readings from left over test strips using a sample from an already perfectly balanced pool. Not surprisingly it conveniently created a shopping list and recommended several products to add.

    Now I realize this tool is useless for maintaining proper water balance and great for making Aqua Chem money, but it did get me thinking.

    I realize the Pool Calculator is indispensable for finding out the proper amounts of chemicals to add to reach user defined goals. It would be nice to have a simple tool to advise pool owners how to maintain TFP recommended water balance with similar step-by-step simplicity.

    What I would like to get started on is creating a tool that will allow a user to plug in the TF-100 or K-2006 test results and get instructions on what to add first, how long to wait, what to add next, etc., all based on TFP's recommended levels and methods of adjustment.

    The AquaChem site recommends adjusting levels in this order: CYA, TA, pH, CH, FC.

    As a starting point in developing a similar step-by-step adviser, what would be TFP's recommended order of adjustment?
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    Quote Originally Posted by JesseWV
    I realize the Pool Calculator is indispensable for finding out the proper amounts of chemicals to add to reach user defined goals. It would be nice to have a simple tool to advise pool owners how to maintain TFP recommended water balance with similar step-by-step simplicity.
    The Pool Calculator does exactly this.

    In the final yellow cell of the table, you'll find "Suggested Goal Levels" and can select the levels recommended by TFP for each chemical. Once you've selected TFP levels, entered the appropriate capacity of your pool at the top, these settings will be saved.

    From then on, simply enter your current values, and to the right you'll be presented with exactly what you seek...appropriate amount of Chemical B to add.
    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    Quote Originally Posted by JesseWV
    ...
    The AquaChem site recommends adjusting levels in this order: CYA, TA, pH, CH, FC.

    As a starting point in developing a similar step-by-step adviser, what would be TFP's recommended order of adjustment?
    pH
    FC
    CYA
    CH
    TA
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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    Quote Originally Posted by JesseWV
    It would be nice to have a simple tool to advise pool owners how to maintain TFP recommended water balance with similar step-by-step simplicity.
    While it would be good information, remember that most people come here because they're sick of someone (namely, a pool store) giving them directions to blindly follow. We're here because we want to know not only what to put in the pool, buy why we're doing it. Plus, there would (well, should) be too many variables, since every pool is different.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    TFP Water Balance Adviser

    The PoolCalculator, while great for those familiar with it, can be a daunting to a newbie. It also doesn't get them started on what the first step should be. What I'm trying to create is something that not only will give them the proper amounts, the proper order and wait time between steps, but also a little educational paragraph about each balance item and different chemical options to achieve the goal.

    The output would be verbose and user friendly such as:

    Issue: pH not balanced.
    Problem: pH of 8.0 is too high.
    Solution: Lower your pH by adding ##oz Muriatic Acid or ##oz Dry Acid
    Method: Slowly pour directly in front of the return jet with the pump running. Circulate for 1 hour.
    Info: pH is a measure of how acidic or basic the water is. pH levels below 7.2 tend to make eyes sting or burn. pH below 6.8 can cause damage to metal parts, particularly pool heaters with copper heat exchange coils. High pH can lead to calcium scaling. pH contributes to the CSI, which indicates the tendency for plaster damage or calcium scaling. Aeration will tend to cause the pH to rise. pH also changes chlorine's effectiveness and how fast it is consumed.

    Issue: Chlorine/Stabilizer not balanced.
    Problem: Stabilizer (CYA) level is too low.
    Solution: Add ##oz of Cyanuric Acid
    Method: Fill an old sock with granules. Hang the sock in front of the return jet with the pump running. Circulate for up to 24 hours or until sock is empty.
    Note: The adjusted CYA level will take up to 7 days to register on the CYA test. An alternate way of dissolving the granules is to add them directly to the skimmer. Using this method will not allow you to backwash the filter for 7 days or the CYA will be flushed before it is all dissolved.
    Info: Cyanuric acid, often called stabilizer or conditioner, both protects FC from sunlight and lowers the effective strength of the FC (by holding some of the FC in reserve). The higher your CYA level, the more FC you need to use to get the same effect. It is important to know your CYA level so you can figure out what FC level to aim for.
    Problem: Combined Chlorine level (CC) is too high.
    Solution: Add ##oz of liquid bleach attain a FC of ##ppm to begin the Shock Process.
    Method: Slowly pour directly in front of the return jet with the pump running. Allow to circulate for 30-60 minutes then re-test FC to continue the process.
    Info: Combined chlorine is an intermediate breakdown product created in the process of sanitizing the pool. CC causes the "chlorine" smell many people associate with chlorine pools. If CC is above 0.5, you should shock your pool. CC indicates that there is something in the water that the FC is in the process of breaking down. In an outdoor pool, CC will normally stay at or near zero as long as you maintain an appropriate FC level and the pool gets some direct sunlight.
    Problem: Free Chlorine Level (FC) is too low.
    Solution: Allow FC to fall to ##ppm when the shock process is complete.
    Info: Free chlorine shows the level of disinfecting chlorine available (active plus reserve) to keep your pool sanitary. Normally, FC should be tested and chlorine added daily. If you have an automatic feeder or SWG, you can test it every couple of days. FC is consumed by sunlight, and by breaking down organic material in your pool. The level of FC you need to maintain depends on your CYA level and how much you use the pool. See the Chlorine / CYA Chart for guidelines on the appropriate FC level to maintain based on your CYA level.

    Issue: Total Alkalinity (TA) not balanced.
    Problem: TA is too low.
    Solution: Add ##oz of Baking Soda
    Method: Evenly broadcast across the surface of the deepest area of the pool.
    Info: Total alkalinity indicates the water's ability to buffer pH changes. Buffering means you need to use a larger quantity of a chemical to change the pH. At low TA levels, the pH tends to swing around wildly. At high TA levels, the pH tends to drift up. TA contributes to the CSI which indicates the tendency for plaster damage or calcium scaling.

    Issue: Calcium Hardness (CH) not balanced.
    Problem: CH is too low.
    Solution: Add ##oz of calcium chloride or
    Method: Broadcast pellets evenly across the bottom of the pool. Stir with brush until completely dissolved.
    Info: Calcium hardness indicates the amount of calcium in the water. Over time, water with low calcium levels will tend to dissolve calcium out of plaster, pebble, tile, stone, concrete, and to some extent fiberglass surfaces. You can prevent this from happening by keeping the water saturated with calcium.


    Quote Originally Posted by gboulton
    Quote Originally Posted by JesseWV
    I realize the Pool Calculator is indispensable for finding out the proper amounts of chemicals to add to reach user defined goals. It would be nice to have a simple tool to advise pool owners how to maintain TFP recommended water balance with similar step-by-step simplicity.
    The Pool Calculator does exactly this.

    In the final yellow cell of the table, you'll find "Suggested Goal Levels" and can select the levels recommended by TFP for each chemical. Once you've selected TFP levels, entered the appropriate capacity of your pool at the top, these settings will be saved.

    From then on, simply enter your current values, and to the right you'll be presented with exactly what you seek...appropriate amount of Chemical B to add.
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    I agree that every pool is different. That would be one of the most challenging parts of writing the code.

    What gives me hope is that no matter how out of whack a pool starts out there's a definite way to get to sparkly, one step at a time. We do it here on the forums every day. It sure seems like there is quite a bit of repeating the same things over and over again.

    While my suggestion may not be complex enough to deal with all issues it could go a long way in getting newbies started on the right track. Embedded in the instructions would be links to applicable sections of pool school to allow beginners the opportunity and means to learn about exactly what they are facing in their particular situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smykowski
    Quote Originally Posted by JesseWV
    It would be nice to have a simple tool to advise pool owners how to maintain TFP recommended water balance with similar step-by-step simplicity.
    While it would be good information, remember that most people come here because they're sick of someone (namely, a pool store) giving them directions to blindly follow. We're here because we want to know not only what to put in the pool, buy why we're doing it. Plus, there would (well, should) be too many variables, since every pool is different.
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser


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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    I have seen several threads on here this past year that basically say, " OK, I plugged my numbers into the poolcalculator and it told me exactly what quantities of stuff to put in my pool. (which, of course, is exactly what it does) I did all that and my pool is still cloudy. What should I do now?"

    What are these folks missing...understanding.

    The poolcalculator and a precise test kit are the best tools on the net for helping you get your pool water in great shape, but neither one gives a rat's patoot whether your pool is clear or not....you (the pool owner) must couple the results with understanding of what to do with those results.

    BBB teaches the basics of pool water chemistry.....what parameters are important, why they are important, and then how to adjust them with predictable results. Folks who are willing to invest the time to learn will have great success.

    Those folks who want the poolcalculator (or any other device) to "fix" their pool for them are really Pool Store candidates.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    I think it would be a wonderful thing, but it's going to take a lot of "IF" statements to make it usable. For example,

    You would normally handle pH first unless,
    the TA is zero and then you'd raise TA and then retest and adjust pH unless,
    the CYA or the CH is really high, then you might as well drain before you adjust any of the others unless,
    the CH of your fill water is really in which case you might be wasting your time draining because you won't help the issue so,
    You might as well adjust the TA but,
    if your fill water is not too high in CH and,
    you only need to drain 50% or less, then you could partially adjust the TA and do the drain or,
    you could adjust the TA/pH and then drain and refill.

    I'm not trying to discourage you at all because it could be a reference for us to use to help people. One thing I'd like to see is that the reference to the CSI be removed completely. The problem with it is that people get hung up on it and it's only important for a very few people. Besides if you keep the rest of the numbers in the recommended ranges, except for a few specific cases, the CSI is going to be fine. Take me for example; my pool has zero CH, so no matter what the rest of my numbers are my CSI is going to be completely out of whack.

    And that brings up another parameter, what pool surface do you have?

    Ok that's enough. Have fun with it.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    I have actually done a little work on a Java app that does something similar, but it hasn't really progressed because there are a lot of variables to consider and work got busy. I was using it as a learning example for myself.

    I had written it as an iterative decision tree, but there are a lot of variables to account for. Water chemistry and appearance, pool surface, SWCG/Non-SWCG, water availability, fill water chemistry etc., climate/season length etc.. It will require a fairly lengthy form to be completed, and there are still a lot of exceptions to handle.

    Just as an example, if a member has an IG pool in Michigan and uses the app on August 30 and says their CYA is 90ppm with no SWCG, my answer would be to maintain the high chlorine level for the rest of the season and watch using stabilized chlorine next year. If they posted the same thing on May 1st, I'd tell them to drain some water to get their CYA down. Making software smart enough to do that isn't trivial.
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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    I started working on this a few years ago and estimated that it would take several thousand rules designed to work together before you had anything significantly better than the Taylor web site. I wrote a toy system with two hundred rules and it was barely able to cover a few of the most routine situations. Pool care is really a nearly endless list of special cases. If it is ever done, it will be way way better than anything currently out there.
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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    Hal (from 2001: A Space Odyssey) could do it....

    "Dave, please put down the adult beverage and put 3ppm of chlorine in the pool. Dave, please get up now and put chlorine in the pool. Dave, Dave....

    Dave, I'm sorry I cannot allow that clarifier in the pool...put it on the counter NOW, Dave.

    Dave, why are their small children in my pool 7 minutes before the scheduled start time? Please remove them NOW, Dave.

    Dave, why are you going to the bathroom in my pool? Dave, I have neutralized the ammonia but am beginning to see the necessity of neutralizing you as well. Dave, why are you running, Dave? Come back, Dave. Your pool needs Borax, Dave. Dave, I must insist your return to the premises immediately and I will release your children. Dave? Dave?"
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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    The man is willing to give it a shot. I say GO FOR IT!! It certainly would be a useful tool to many many people.
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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    Trust me, proper understanding is going to be at the heart of the project. I was actually thinking about not showing the actual amounts of chemicals to add until they read through the information about exactly what the problem is and why it's a problem.

    I personally will continue to use the Pool Calculator. I think people will naturally transition to it as well once they gain that understanding with a little help.

    I remember when I first started tinkering with the Pool Calculator. After plugging in my test results and setting goals I knew what I needed to add but not in what order or the proper method. That's the gap I'm trying to bridge here.

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    I have seen several threads on here this past year that basically say, " OK, I plugged my numbers into the poolcalculator and it told me exactly what quantities of stuff to put in my pool. (which, of course, is exactly what it does) I did all that and my pool is still cloudy. What should I do now?"

    What are these folks missing...understanding.

    The poolcalculator and a precise test kit are the best tools on the net for helping you get your pool water in great shape, but neither one gives a rat's patoot whether your pool is clear or not....you (the pool owner) must couple the results with understanding of what to do with those results.

    BBB teaches the basics of pool water chemistry.....what parameters are important, why they are important, and then how to adjust them with predictable results. Folks who are willing to invest the time to learn will have great success.

    Those folks who want the poolcalculator (or any other device) to "fix" their pool for them are really Pool Store candidates.
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    Or the WOPR from War Games. Heh heh!

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    Hal (from 2001: A Space Odyssey) could do it....

    "Dave, please put down the adult beverage and put 3ppm of chlorine in the pool. Dave, please get up now and put chlorine in the pool. Dave, Dave....

    Dave, I'm sorry I cannot allow that clarifier in the pool...put it on the counter NOW, Dave.

    Dave, why are their small children in my pool 7 minutes before the scheduled start time? Please remove them NOW, Dave.

    Dave, why are you going to the bathroom in my pool? Dave, I have neutralized the ammonia but am beginning to see the necessity of neutralizing you as well. Dave, why are you running, Dave? Come back, Dave. Your pool needs Borax, Dave. Dave, I must insist your return to the premises immediately and I will release your children. Dave? Dave?"

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    That's the gap I'm trying to bridge here.
    That's a good description for it. I see that gap 10 times daily here on the forum.

    Some of it (see my post above) is caused by assuming the poolcalculator will fix your pool. We don't make that as clear as we could or the newbies would not be scratching their heads so much.
    Dave S.
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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    So much of the problem here is the number of questions you would need to ask to fill in the blanks, and then there is the chance that the newbie would not know the right answers:

    What type of pool do you have: Vinyl, plaster, ....

    What level of sunlight does your pool get...

    Do you live in the "sun belt" where sunlight are particularly intense....

    How long is your swim season, and what part of it are you currently in, beginning, middle, end...

    All of the above seem fairly easy, then we get to the harder ones:

    Does your water pH tend to drift up or down, how fast.....

    What is your bather load like, ....

    then of course input test numbers for fill water and pool water......

    What does your water look like...

    What is your fill water source, if municipal does it come from wells, rivers,etc

    By this time I suspect most newbies would have given up

    Ike

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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    Yes I expect most newbies would have given up if you threw all those questions at them. I really don't think a lot of those questions are necessary for an initial pool setup. For example, if someone is setting up a pool for the first time, how would he know if his PH tends to drift up or down. Newbie or experienced can't answer that. I think this can be done. Perhaps it would be overload for clearing up a swamp, or baq conversion, but for basic pool setup and maintenance, I think it can be done.
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    Re: TFP Water Balance Adviser

    What language did you use if you don't mind me asking?

    I decided that I don't want to arbitrarily start coding in Java, C, or any other language just yet. First I am doing some research on whether there are better alternatives when so many conditions will be present. It's a shame the "Expert System" language CLIPS doesn't play well, at least as far as I have found, with the web. It seems promising.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    I started working on this a few years ago and estimated that it would take several thousand rules designed to work together before you had anything significantly better than the Taylor web site. I wrote a toy system with two hundred rules and it was barely able to cover a few of the most routine situations. Pool care is really a nearly endless list of special cases. If it is ever done, it will be way way better than anything currently out there.
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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