No longer cloudy and I think I'm on the right track...

[UnderWaterVanya]

My father-in-law just bought a house a few days ago with a pool. The pool is from 2003 or 2007 - I'm not sure; I'd lean towards 2003. It's an in ground vinyl with concrete decking roughly 16x32 and around 3' on the shallow end and 5.75' on the deep end for about 18,000 gallons I think.

In any case, the former ownership was a trust and they were not dilligent about the pool. It was reopened for inspection about 10 weeks ago. They didn't start maintaining it until we complained and then they had a pool service keep it going. The service did not use pucks that I know of. The pool when they turned it over was full of a minor green algae bloom on the walls and floor but the water was mostly clear. I brushed it and dumped in about 14 oz of Algaecide (Aquachem 50% for Green Algae) the first day (this past Thursday.) I then added 2 Triclor pucks to the autochlorinator (not knowing any better) and assumed all would be good. Then I found this site and started reading. Friday I had no green in the pool but it was a bit cloudy - I backwashed a couple of times and kept filtering. I went to the Hardware store and got my water read: FC: 1.7, TC: 1.6 (???), CC (0), PH: 7.7, Hardness: 340ppm, TA: 0 (!), Copper 0.03, Iron 0; So after reading the CYA/FC chart I got some 6% bleach and based added about 50oz of it to the pool to see what happened. I also dumped in 8 lbs of TA booster later that day and and I ordered the TF100 (which arrived Today since I'm in NC also!). Then I read the site some more... . Today I had them test the water again - it was a mess of a testing session with multiple runs and different results. The key items being TC: 2.2-2.3, CC (0), PH:7.4, TA (20-40), CYA: 40. Based on CYA/FC I boosted this with another 65-70oz of 6% bleach mid-day (yes I know that isn't the best time) and kept the kids out for an hour or so. Then tonight when we left for dinner I dumped another 8lbs-10lbs of TA Booster into the pool and brushed the deep end to ensure it was well mixed.

I came home only to find my TF100 had arrived! Yippie!!!

Tonight I measured and got the following results using the full FAS-DPD/etc.

FC: 5.5ppm
CC: 0.5ppm
TC: 6.0ppm
TA: 170ppm (Ouch! Wish I knew this before blinding dumping in the TA booster!)
CH: 350-360ppm (not quite sure based on color change)
CYA: 30ppm

Based on the CC value of 0.5 I assumed I needed to Shock and I also wanted CYA around 35. So having purchased a box of Dichlor based shock already before finding the site I dumped in Two bags in the deep end and set the pump to run all night tonight. Tomorrow I'll try to get a FC reading early in the morning but I may fail to get up early as tired as I am.

The water is clear'ish and a little cloudy. The main drain is slightly obscured but all the shallow is easily seen and I can see the bottom everywhere but it's a little cloudy - not crystal clear.

Tomorrow no one is going to use the pool (Everyone is tired and worn out anyway...).

So am I crazy or am I on track? I know that to bring down the CH I'm going to have to lose some water and add some fill - with Vinyl liner and Concrete decking can I hold off on that and let the evaporation and replenishment help? I'm in the Charlotte NC area it's HOT and humid here. The pool gets a good 8 hours of sunlight if not more a day.

Oh one more thing. I brushed it when I algaecided it and I brushed it today. I have no vacuum hose yet - that's on the todo for tomorrow. My plan is to try to use Bleach as my primary Chlorine and use pucks and/or shock if I need the CYA but otherwise not. I'm not above using a few pool chems but I am going to test and understand what impact before blinding treating symptoms. I want crystal clear water - but I also don't live there. It's a 5 min drive to the house so I can probably take care of it most of the time without issue - pucks for when I am out of town?

Lots of stuff in this first post - please be kind.

 

[Smykowski]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

No need to be kind here, you've got it pretty well under control. Only a couple of comments worth mentioning....

1. You already learned an important one...don't trust the pool store's testing. That being said, don't worry about the TA. If your pH drifts up, you'll add acid to bring it down, and that will gradually bring down the TA as well. Let it find its "happy place."

2. Same diagnosis for CH. Yes it's high, but with a vinyl pool, you have a lot more room for error. Your plan of slowly dropping CH with fill water is a good one (assuming your fill water isn't hard).

3. Based on the recent visible algae and current cloudy water, I'd shock it (even though the CC is at .5). It seems pretty common here that chlorine killing algae does not necessarily produce CCs, so just because your CC is close to zero, I wouldn't assume that there isn't something living in it. That said, I would guess that if you bring it up to shock level, you'll pass the OCLT pretty quickly.

Welcome to the forum, and fantastic job of being prepared even before the first post. Please keep asking questions, and take before and after pictures. They're a lot of fun to look at after the pool is sparkly.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Smy has you covered, so I'll just say welcome to TFP.

 

[Richard320]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

If you did the CH test by hand, it's probably not that high. My reading dropped quite a bit once I bought a speedstir, the reaction takes a little time and a lot of mixing.

Also note that CYA doesn't always register right away. So grab some POP (Pool Owner Patience) and resist the temptation to test CYA every day. Wait a week, save your reagent.

Beyond those tips, I'd say you have a pretty good grasp of things. A couple more tests seeing the results of what you've added will get you some real understanding. Sort of like the lab work in science classes in school. Don't forget to brush, that breaks the protective skin off any algae.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

raised chlorine to a predicted 14ppm or 15ppm last night and ran filter 22 hours out of 24... pool is very clear! This afternoon FC was 9.5ppm and CC test just barely turned pink before i added one drop to get it completely clear.

Raising it back up tonight. May not get an OCLT due to tiredness and ti

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Time for a quick update.

I finally got a good OCLT done measured 19ppm FC before bed, 18ppm FC the next day. Very faint pink when testing for CC and one drop made it go away so at most 0.5ppm CC. However it's hard for me to get these tests done since I don't live there and while only 1.5 miles away - it's a hassle compared to walking out the back door.

Temps have been high and sunlight has been intense but my daily loss looks to be around 7 ppm with strong sun from ~ 10am ~ 5pm. My CYA level is somewhere around 40-45 but could be higher if I'm doing the test with the wrong lighting. My daylight testing is limited due to my time that I have to work on the pool and at night indoors with artificial light (side lit) I'm getting 40ppm. Outdoors in the sun it's more inconsistent, sometimes 50ppm, sometimes 40ppm, I've even seen 60ppm once but I think it's my vision (which is poor) that makes this tough. I'm treating the water as though it was 40ppm most of the time.

At this point - with CC's low, and with a passed OCLT, I'm no longer trying to shock it. The water is clear and the pump run time is down to 8am - Midnight. (Still working my way back to a shorter run time). I'm adding roughly 182oz of 6% bleach every night - boosting FC to around 12ppm and the having it drop back to 5ppm by the next evening.

I'm going to try this schedule for a few days and see how the FC measures with the FAS-DPD test to see if I have the routine down. I was hoping to use less bleach a day but I guess that's not rational in this heat and sunlight.

Speaking of sunlight... is a solar cover any good at keeping down FC loss? Are the circles that they sell any good as an alternate to a full cover? Is the liquid stuff or similar product useful? How much hotter will the pool be likely to get? In our 102-106 degree heat wave the 75-81 degree temps in the pool have been great!

 

[duraleigh]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Typical FC loss should be 2-4ppm. In the heat, perhaps a bit more but 7ppm sounds a little excessive. I think you'll experience less when FC returns to maintenance level of about 4-6ppm.

You will probably want to make an aerator to cool your pool. search "ppol cooler" on here and I think you'll find some good examples.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Typical FC loss should be 2-4ppm. In the heat, perhaps a bit more but 7ppm sounds a little excessive. I think you'll experience less when FC returns to maintenance level of about 4-6ppm.

You will probably want to make an aerator to cool your pool. search "ppol cooler" on here and I think you'll find some good examples.

EDIT: I tried searching for "ppol cooler" but had zero hits other than this thread. Is that a typo? Edit - pool cooler duh! LOL


I'm honestly not 100% confident in my OCLT results. I have had some trouble getting consistent results on the same sample. I originally started out with a method where I would add a drop, swirl, add another drop, swirl, etc. This takes a long time when you're shocking at 16-20ppm, so I also resorted to add 2-3 drops, swirl, add 2-3 drops, and then as I got close to expected results I would switch back to 1 drop at a time. These seemed to agree with the second method sometimes reporting less FC than the first. Then I read that constant swirling was needed and to go fairly quickly, so I switched hands and swirled with the right and dropped with the left and my results were lower still... 12ppm vs. 19ppm - Frankly I'm a little lost on which is wrong and which is right.

So maybe I need to go back to shocking for a while and then retest using the constant swirl. One thing that I know - if I do the swirl, drop, swirl, drop - I see the expected ppm increase of around 7ppm for a full 182oz bottle of bleach - but this presupposes that my volume is correct and honestly that's been reverse engineered from what results I get when I add chemicals! But the consistency in the increase in ppm makes me think I'm doing something right.

Has anyone else seen this where the drop, swirl, drop reports higher FC - and is this accurate? I'm not talking drop, wait a few seconds swirling, drop... it's drop, swirl, drop, swirl takes about 1 second between drops. Generally the swirl is still going when I drop the next drop but not with any real gusto.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Corrections and updates:

In a previous post I said one return had anemic flow. I now think it's normal flow - but since it lacks any eyeball fitting it is just lower pressure. If I put my fingers or hand over the return I can get a pretty good stream of water shooting up just takes more work to get the hole covered enough to build pressure.

I have also checked and my main drain and skimmer are both working. My valves are pretty nasty (chewed/broken tabs) but appear to work. I do not get great suction when using vacuum but I haven't tried turning off or reducing flow from the main drain so this could be related.

August EDIT: Flow is low due to this return being tied to PB4 booster for Polaris Cleaner. Suction is limited on skimmer due to valves on skimmer and main drain suctions being poorly setup - if they are changed from half-closed there is air leaked into the system. Can't shut down the main drain when vacuuming due to this. Plan to repair.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

I'm honestly not 100% confident in my OCLT results. I have had some trouble getting consistent results on the same sample. I originally started out with a method where I would add a drop, swirl, add another drop, swirl, etc. This takes a long time when you're shocking at 16-20ppm, so I also resorted to add 2-3 drops, swirl, add 2-3 drops, and then as I got close to expected results I would switch back to 1 drop at a time. These seemed to agree with the second method sometimes reporting less FC than the first. Then I read that constant swirling was needed and to go fairly quickly, so I switched hands and swirled with the right and dropped with the left and my results were lower still... 12ppm vs. 19ppm - Frankly I'm a little lost on which is wrong and which is right.

So maybe I need to go back to shocking for a while and then retest using the constant swirl. One thing that I know - if I do the swirl, drop, swirl, drop - I see the expected ppm increase of around 7ppm for a full 182oz bottle of bleach - but this presupposes that my volume is correct and honestly that's been reverse engineered from what results I get when I add chemicals! But the consistency in the increase in ppm makes me think I'm doing something right.

Has anyone else seen this where the drop, swirl, drop reports higher FC - and is this accurate? I'm not talking drop, wait a few seconds swirling, drop... it's drop, swirl, drop, swirl takes about 1 second between drops. Generally the swirl is still going when I drop the next drop but not with any real gusto.

This may have gotten lost in the updates posts. Does anyone have advice on this?

 

[JasonLion]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

More swirling and generally moving along quickly are both important.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

SpeedStir

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Fighting an algae outbreak again. I measured my CYA again and I'm seeing closer to 60 not 40 - which I think is due to the way I was testing and improvements in my techniques after reading the extended test directions.

Because of the new CYA level I'm shooting for a shock of 18 or there abouts. I added a bit last night and checked mid day and had dropped to 17ppm, which I then tried to bring up with 96oz of bleach (should put me about 20ppm). I'll check again tonight.

The stairs treds which have been white the entire time suddenly this morning had multiple brown splotches in the grooves which I brushed and got mostly off but some stains remained behind. The deep end which had been clean started feeling a little slimy a few days ago and I now see one stain/algae on the bottom that will not brush off. The stains are greenish to yellow but and really small (maybe an inch or two).

In any case, I think after reading that the slimy stuff could be mustard algae - it is on the part of the pool in the shadiest part and it's also got the slime feel but not a lot of cloudy residue when I brush - just a little. The white steps also have a very pale brown stain on the vertical surfaces under the water line. I have found some crusty debris/algae stuck to the liner just above the water line - it's hard to get off - brushing does not work. I am able to slowly pick at it with a fingernail and get it to come off eventually - it's brownish but also green during the scraping. The deposits are narrow - maybe 1mm - and sometimes dots and sometimes more like a string tossed in a random pattern.

My plan is to use the method laid out in Pool School - shock until all criteria are met and then go Mustard Shock levels for 24 hours. I'll pull the pool light out and scrub the socket during that time. One other issue is that the ladder treads are buckled up - so water gets under them - and presumably algae and there is no easy way to scrub under them.

BTW - I think I have a handle on the technique of dropping the reagent into the tube while keeping it swirling. My results are a little more consistent now. Still not sure I want to get a speed stir but it's on the list of possible purchases.

One thing I discovered. As the reagent gets low for the FAS-DPD test if you invert the bottle it immediately starts dripping. I found that if I squeeze the bottle while it is upright - removing some air - and then invert it the air pressure will keep it from suddenly flowing and making it hard to keep the drops under control.

Pictures of the pool are now on Photobucket http://s1073.photobucket.com/albums/w387/BradShea/Pool/- along with my equipment. I have loads of equipment questions but I'll post those later.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

The pool had a lot of grit in it when I started - even some small rocks! I attributed this to the crumbling edge of the decking which appeared to be too thin at the edge and easily broke off if pushed. But over time I am starting to wonder if that is the sole source of the grit I'm not sure how to diagnose this further but here are some additional facts.

The pool has three returns one in the middle on the wall away from the skimmer, and a pair on the stairs. The way it is rigged the stairs get a lot of pressure and flow but the main return is weaker unless the booster pump is turned on. I am not finding grit on the stairs. I have found it in the shallow end but not recently.

Vacuum pressure seems weak to me (strainer connection) but I have limited experience and my valves are odd. I may not be getting all the grit and it maybe settling in the deep end.

Ideas welcome.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Seeing sand on the steps... Suspect broken lateral. What can I do to be sure? How do you fix this?

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Should I post my equipment questions in another section? I'm not seeing any nibbles here on the last couple of posts.

I found this site: http://www.poolcenter.com/parts_fILTERS ... eries.htm; which lists parts for the Hayward 210T and it looks like I can buy gaskets (go-kit) and sand shield (5) and laterals (8b) or laterals plus center pipe (6b). I suspect I may have a broken lateral since I'm not seeing pump pressure rise much and I am experiencing grit in the pool and my wife recently reported what she thought was sand floating in the stream of water on the returns at the steps. The steps felt gritty to her also.

I'm not clear how to diagnose this to be sure she was correct and I'm also really fuzzy on how to work on the filter with the rigid PVC pipes attached to everthing. Do I have to remove the connections to the valve first and then pull it off the filter?

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

Latest Test results:

OCLT: 8.0 at 8:30pm last night, 7.5 at 10:30am today (heavily overcast all day)
FC: 7.5 (target 5-9)
CC: 0.0
TA: 130
CH: 330
PH: 7.5

Looks like I'm clean of Algae - water is clear, OCLT passed, CC: less than 0.5.

TA result is much lower than previous one's (175-180). I think I have improved my testing methods (damp cloth wiping off the tip) but I have also replaced some water due to backwashing. Additionally yesterday I added about 1-1.5 lbs of Dry Acid to lower PH from 7.8 which accounts for maybe 5ppm drop but not the 50+ drop seen.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

I think I have figured out what the booster pump is for in my installation. It's a Polaris PB4 and the way it is installed is consistent with a booster operated pressure side vacuum like a Polaris 180/280/380 etc. However since I currently do not have one of these I am unsure of how I should operate things.

Here's a picture of the plumbing and pumps:


Currently the return that is connected to the booster pump is the one on the side of the pool in this picture:


The return has limited pressure and flow when the booster is off - with the booster on the return shoots out a lot more water (no surprise) and the pump pressure gauge drops from around 10.5 to 9. The booster is noisy and is not connected to the main pump timer and does not have a timer of its own. The other two returns in the pool are on the stairs and I'm unclear if I need to run the booster to improve circulation for a portion of the day or if I can leave it off all the time.

I have been running it when I want to add chemicals - figuring the increased flow on the return jet is useful in mixing the chemicals in. Powering up the booster in this configuration also robs the water slide of pressure and ends up making the water flow on the slide stop.

Questions:

• Do I need to run the booster at all without a pressure side cleaner?
  If I do not plan to use a pressure side cleaner - should I replumb the system to try to get greater flow on the side return for better circulation?

 

[duraleigh]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

I suspect I may have a broken lateral since I'm not seeing pump pressure rise much and I am experiencing grit in the pool and my wife recently reported what she thought was sand floating in the stream of water on the returns at the steps. The steps felt gritty to her also.

Have you absolutely confirmed the sand is coming from the returns? Have you checked the multiport for damage (removed the top?) I would proceed carefully since replacing the lateral is a big job with a lot of pipe cutting involved. Make VERY sure that's what the problem is by eliminating the easier possibilities.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy but I think I'm on the right track... Newbie

I suspect I may have a broken lateral since I'm not seeing pump pressure rise much and I am experiencing grit in the pool and my wife recently reported what she thought was sand floating in the stream of water on the returns at the steps. The steps felt gritty to her also.

Have you absolutely confirmed the sand is coming from the returns? Have you checked the multiport for damage (removed the top?) I would proceed carefully since replacing the lateral is a big job with a lot of pipe cutting involved. Make VERY sure that's what the problem is by eliminating the easier possibilities.

Edited: No I haven't. I am now skeptical of this since I have not observed it and it could be that my wife saw debris that the kids tracked in suspended in the flow where she was sitting. Also my pump pressure hasn't risen much - but the water is very clear and there may not be much to filter out - I may not be waiting long enough between checking. This morning pressure was up to 11psi from 10.5 after about three days so that's showing some rise.

What is a good way to try to check for sand? I don't see any in the flow. Is there an easy way to attach something to catch and filter the water? I have two eyeball returns on the stairs with high flow rates. Could I put a tube sock over one of them with a rubber band or something like that?

I'm still confused as to HOW to open the filter and inspect the multiport. The lines are all hard plumbed (no flex) and I'm unclear how to remove the top - do I have to disconnect all the hard lines?

Here's a picture of the multiport and the lines: