chlorine levels with/without nature-2

[Berggy]

OK... so two years ago the price of a g35 nature-2 cartridge went over $100 around here.
This got me to thinking: whenever my chlorine drops to near zero the pool gets cloudy, so what is the nature-2 doing for me?
Last year I got a g-35 for $80 and started reading about bbb pools.
This year I did not buy one, and I have the chlorine around 1.0 and all is well.
What I am reading tells me I need to have my chlorine levels a lot higher. What risks am I taking by leaving chlorine around 1.0 without having a nature 2 cartridge?

 

[linen]

What I am reading tells me I need to have my chlorine levels a lot higher. What risks am I taking by leaving chlorine around 1.0 without having a nature 2 cartridge?

First it is good IMO that you are not using the nature2, you don't need more/any copper and the potential trouble it brings in your pool (let alone the lightening of your wallet). You will have to keep your FC level at or above you minimum normal FC level for your cya (cyanuric acid) level. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock

and:

The risk is your at risk for organics growing out of control in your pool at 1 ppm FC.

What is your current cya level?

 

[Berggy]

Cya-17 this morning
Please point me to or explain organics.

 

[linen]

cya-17 this morning

That is fairly low, so that is good since cya can easily be raised but drain/refill to remove. Just a warning, if that result is from a pool store, I wouldn't trust it...they are notorious for getting it wrong. Most all cya tests can not reliably test below 20 (and most not below 30) ppm cya. What had you been using to chlorinate with?

Please point me to or explain organics.

Sorry about that, I basically meant algae, though bacteria and viruses also fall into this category. With a cya of 17 ppm (again very low and unlikely measurable), you minimum FC level should be 1 and your max 5 ppm FC for normal operation. Also, with that low cya, you will have trouble keeping chlorine in your pool during the sun hours. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/recommended_pool_chemicals

 

[257WbyMag]

The Nature 2 cartridge does nothing more than add metal ions to the pool water. Whether the cartridge is present or not doesn't change anything about proper chlorine levels. Because the N2 does not sanitize water, the need for chlorine is the same whether the N2 is there or not. As a side note, what the N2 will do for you is contribute to the water having the ability to stain surfaces in the pool due to metal. It also adds copper and this is the sole reason why people sometimes get green hair from being in the pool

 

[chem geek]

Nature² for pools adds copper and copper is an algicide. The FC/CYA levels in the Chlorine / CYA Chart are at a level that prevents green and black algae regardless of nutrient level. So using an algicide would let one have a lower FC level, at extra cost (or side effects), but we don't know the precise level and it would vary by algicide and dosing level. If someone truly wanted lower FC levels relative to CYA, then using Polyquat 60 weekly would be a better algicide to use since it has no side effects of possible pool surface staining or turning blond hair greenish. However, there isn't a good reason to use a lower chlorine level since the active chlorine level at the minimum recommendation in the table is equivalent to an FC of only 0.06 ppm with no CYA.

 

[coffeegoddss]

Does anyone know how to get the mesh bag out of the Nature2 cartridge without destroying it? I can't seem to figure it out...

 

[jmhjgh]

How many years did you use the Nature 2 system? Were you successful in keeping a clear pool with Nature 2 and less than 1ppm chlorine? I have read the Nature2 information, and they claim you can run 0.5ppm chlorine and their cartridge. My pool builder maintains many pools and does use this system and claims success. He built my pool with the Nature2 system, but I had read this forum for awhile prior to building our pool, and I have kept the cartridge out of our pool (we are in our first season with the pool). I would like to know if people did have success with this system. In the northern climates, if CYA does really reduce in the winter, maybe people have success with Nature 2 and tri-chlor tablets?

 

[Berggy]

Does anyone know how to get the mesh bag out of the Nature2 cartridge without destroying it? I can't seem to figure it out...

Which one are you using?

I only use the G35 and it goes in a vessel ... this year I just left the vessel empty.

 

[coffeegoddss]

I don't remember - it's the newer one, I think. Blue with a silver cap instead of the grey and yellow. It has tabs you usually push down to let a cover go but it has eight or ten of them! And, apparently, you have to do them all at once - one at a time does nothing. I don't have that many hands! I was just wondering if there was a trick to it I was missing. It's not like we can take it back so, worst case, I deal with it this year and just let it run out. Hopefully, there won't be any horrible staining. And I'll just have to warn any bottle blondes that come over...

 

[Berggy]

How many years did you use the Nature 2 system?

2001 - 2011

Were you successful in keeping a clear pool with Nature 2 and less than 1ppm chlorine? I have read the Nature2 information, and they claim you can run 0.5ppm chlorine and their cartridge.

I kept the CYA between 30-40 and the FC between 0.4-0.6 ... worked great. We had a daycare at the house too, 8-12 kids in it all day every day.

In the northern climates, if CYA does really reduce in the winter, maybe people have success with Nature 2 and tri-chlor tablets?

I used the 3" pucks in the skimmer for the first year or two then switched to a New Water Cycler 400 chlorinator ... set it and forget it ... contains Trichloro-s-Triazinetrione ... is this what they call trichlor?

This past year I figured out that the cycler pack contains 7 pounds of 1" tablets and for $2 cheaper/pound I can buy a bucket of them and refill the cycler pack.

 

[linen]

I used the 3" pucks in the skimmer for the first year or two then switched to a New Water Cycler 400 chlorinator ... set it and forget it ... contains Trichloro-s-Triazinetrione ... is this what they call trichlor?

Yes, and that trichlor also puts cya into your pool. If you use that you will struggle to maintain your 30-40 ppm throughout the season (assuming that you are 0 at the beginning...though this is not a good assumption). Did you do water changes previously to keep the cya down?

 

[Berggy]

I don't remember - it's the newer one, I think. Blue with a silver cap instead of the grey and yellow. It has tabs you usually push down to let a cover go but it has eight or ten of them! And, apparently, you have to do them all at once - one at a time does nothing. I don't have that many hands! I was just wondering if there was a trick to it I was missing. It's not like we can take it back so, worst case, I deal with it this year and just let it run out. Hopefully, there won't be any horrible staining. And I'll just have to warn any bottle blondes that come over...

Don't worry about the blonds ... I have three of them in the house ... and a lot more in the daycare, no issues ever. I'm not sure if it is the low level of chlorine or if the metals don't actually dissolve in the water. My guess it that it comes more from the algaecide and I never use the copper containing ones.

 

[linen]

In the northern climates, if CYA does really reduce in the winter, maybe people have success with Nature 2 and tri-chlor tablets?

Some may have success, but some do not...so many factors. Even though Berggy has not had problems with it, his operating conditions may not be yours...the nature2 does add copper and it will build up over time potential causing staining of pool surfaces and green hair. If you want to be assured of pool chemistry success, then plan on using the methods on this board. IMO using the nature2 approach, may work for some, but is always an experiment for each pool. You can google on this site (use the google search at lower left of page) and you will find examples of where it didn't work, even in cooler climes.

 

[chem geek]

whenever my chlorine drops to near zero the pool gets cloudy, so what is the nature-2 doing for me?

I just want to remind everyone that in order for copper ions to completely prevent algae growth when there is no chlorine (say, if that happens by accident), it requires a level that is very close to that which causes staining even if the pH isn't particularly high. Polyquat will slow down algae growth, but won't stop it if there is no chlorine. Phosphate removers will reduce inorganic phosphates, but not organic phosphates (that algae can still use, but more slowly) so if there is no chlorine so bacteria can grow, they will convert organic phosphates to inorganic ones and you can still get an algae bloom.

Again, I'm missing the point of why people are considering these algicides. The active chlorine level at Pool School recommended FC/CYA levels is already at a very low 0.06 ppm FC equivalent with no CYA to prevent algae growth so why are you trying to get it even lower than that? Is it to save on chlorine consumption and associated cost? If so, the costs/risks of the algicide may counteract any such savings.

 

[Berggy]

I used the 3" pucks in the skimmer for the first year or two then switched to a New Water Cycler 400 chlorinator ... set it and forget it ... contains Trichloro-s-Triazinetrione ... is this what they call trichlor?

Yes, and that trichlor also puts cya into your pool. If you use that you will struggle to maintain your 30-40 ppm throughout the season (assuming that you are 0 at the beginning...though this is not a good assumption). Did you do water changes previously to keep the cya down?

1. I'll check the bottle when I get home .. just in case I made a chemical mistake.
2. My CYA levels never changed that I noticed ... prolly because I only use 2.5 jugs of New Water/Year = ~ 18lbs?
3. My only water change is from 2 back washes/year and the drain down to below the skimmer @ closing

 

[Berggy]

whenever my chlorine drops to near zero the pool gets cloudy, so what is the nature-2 doing for me?

I just want to remind everyone that in order for copper ions to completely prevent algae growth when there is no chlorine (say, if that happens by accident), it requires a level that is very close to that which causes staining even if the pH isn't particularly high. Polyquat will slow down algae growth, but won't stop it if there is no chlorine. Phosphate removers will reduce inorganic phosphates, but not organic phosphates (that algae can still use, but more slowly) so if there is no chlorine so bacteria can grow, they will convert organic phosphates to inorganic ones and you can still get an algae bloom.

Again, I'm missing the point of why people are considering these algicides. The active chlorine level at Pool School recommended FC/CYA levels is already at a very low 0.06 ppm FC equivalent with no CYA to prevent algae growth so why are you trying to get it even lower than that? Is it to save on chlorine consumption and associated cost? If so, the costs/risks of the algicide may counteract any such savings.

Is this directed at me? ... if so you lost me.
For 11 years I have kept FC @ ~0.5 and CYA @~40 ... dumping one quart of algae killer @ opening and one at closing and I burn ~18lbs of chlorine/season. Never had any algae issues.

 

[linen]

I burn ~18lbs of chlorine/season

Assuming this is trichlor, then your increase in cya concentration at the end of the season will be 60 ppm. This assuming you used no other products to "shock" the pool like dichlor granuals...as they also add cya. Again, I would not assume you are at 0 ppm cya at the beginning of the season.

60 ppm cya concentration alone is not too bad, but is does require a FC level of 5 ppm minimum (per poolcalculator) to ensure that you remain algae free. I am not sure how much lower of an FC concentration you could maintain safely with an algaecide, but it sure isn't 0.5 ppm FC.

The only way cya leaves a pool during the summer is by splash out or drain/refill. How and when are you testing for cya?

 

[chem geek]

For 11 years I have kept FC @ ~0.5 and CYA @~40 ... dumping one quart of algae killer @ opening and one at closing and I burn ~18lbs of chlorine/season. Never had any algae issues.

If you're happy with the result, then that's fine. I just want to make sure you understand the pros/cons of the approach. I'm not sure what algaecide you use upon opening -- unless it's copper-based, it won't last more than a couple of weeks. You say you never had any algae issues, but the cloudiness you see when the chlorine drops to near zero is likely to be algae growth. The bather load in the pool is probably not enough to cause cloudiness. When algae first starts to grow, it can often make the water look dull and then cloudy before becoming a full-fledged green bloom. The chlorine demand usually noticeably increases as well. I saw this progression in my own pool years ago when I used Trichlor pucks and Polyquat algicide every other week when after 1-1/2 years my CYA hit 150 ppm with my target FC at 3 ppm and the water turned dull/cloudy and chlorine demand shot up.

 

[Berggy]

I burn ~18lbs of chlorine/season

Assuming this is trichlor, then your increase in cya concentration at the end of the season will be 60 ppm. This assuming you used no other products to "shock" the pool like dichlor granuals...as they also add cya. Again, I would not assume you are at 0 ppm cya at the beginning of the season.

The only way cya leaves a pool during the summer is by splash out or drain/refill. How and when are you testing for cya?

The pool company tests with a LaMotte WaterLink Express Professional system and I test with a LaMotte Color-Q Pro7 system. We never agree but we are very close.
Every spring I have 6-13 cya and each pound brings it up 0.9.

I just checked the jug and I am using the tricolor I wrote about above.
I take full measurements daily till we get stable readings then I only check cya, and calcium once every couple weeks after.The parameters stay pretty stable except I am always adding washing soda as the ph always slowly drops.