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Thread: mixed messages about MA

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    mixed messages about MA

    I'm getting mixed messages about how long to run my pump after adding MA. just added 11 oz to a 4600g pool. if that matters. some say 4 hours some say 6 pool store guy said 72 hours! also i have a SWG and he told me to run that the whole 3 days as well. i should mention its a fresh fill and chlorine is at 0.
    going by the pool store guys sloppy hand writing as my test kit has yet to arive, here are the results he wrote down.
    chlorine 0
    ph 8.4
    alkalinity 30
    hardness 120
    phos 0
    if you haven't noticed I'm new here.
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    We generally say to run the pump 1 hour after adding a chemical ... that gets things pretty well mixed up.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    JesseWV's Avatar
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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    Was your pH already too high when you filled? It seems strange to be adding Muriatic Acid already. Have you adjusted your TA yet?

    As far as mixing it really all depends on the GPH rating of your pump/filter. If you have a smaller Intex pump I would probably let it go 2-3 hours. If you have a 3/4hp or higher standard pump 1 hour should be fine.

    Regardinf your SWG, I would give your pool some initial chlorine with some bleach to get it started. Then just let the SWG keep it topped off. What is your CYA (stabilizer) level?
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    PH seemed fine to me with the twoway test kit i had from walmart. But the guy at the pool store said it was high. I only added salt to the pool so far. And just now the MA. Small intex pump
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    Using the test results you posted PH is very high and TA level (alkalinity) is very low. Because of the low TA, it won't take much to bring down the PH. You are also going to need to increase the TA as soon as practical. Of course the pool store results could be wrong. If you have other results that contradict them you should tell us more about them.

    MA mixes in extremely quickly. Half an hour with the pump running should do it in just about any pool.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    First off, I'm not sure if the pool store tested for stabilizer or salt but to your pool they are very important. I'm going to assume you already added the recommend amount of salt?

    Anyhow, I plugged your numbers into the PoolCalculator and there are a few pressing issues.

    Adding 11oz of 31.45% MA lowered your pH from 8.4 to 6.7 which is very low. You need to add 11oz of washing soda or 23oz of 20 Mule Team Borax to bring your pH back up to 7.4.

    If your SWG hasn't brought your FC up to at least 1ppm by now, you need to get some chlorine in your pool after the pH settles in. I would at least add 9oz of bleach if you're still at 0ppm. Once you get your stabilizer dissolved (see #3) your target FC will be 5ppm.

    You need stabilizer (CYA) in your water or you'll be running your SWG cell into an early death. Most of the chlorine generated will be quickly destroyed by UV radiation every day. The recommended level for SWG pools is around 70ppm for which you will need 43oz of Cynauric Acid. The recommend method is to fill an old tube sock or t-shirt and hang it near the return jet. With occasional squeezing it should be dissolved in a day or two. Keep in mind you probably won't be able to get an accurate CYA test reading for about a week.


    Quote Originally Posted by solodare
    going by the pool store guys sloppy hand writing as my test kit has yet to arive, here are the results he wrote down.
    chlorine 0
    ph 8.4
    alkalinity 30
    hardness 120
    phos 0
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    OMG! I knew he missed a drop of solution when testing! My ph is way low just like you said, im frealing out ! Can i get soda ash or borax at walmart? I have alkalinity up, should i go a head with thay?
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    That little ! OMG! Im going to kill that kid! Trying to do that test all fast and look cool in front of my wife. I knew he missed a drop but thought "hey he is a pro im sure he knows what he is doing!
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    Quote Originally Posted by solodare
    OMG! I knew he missed a drop of solution when testing! My ph is way low just like you said, im frealing out ! Can i get soda ash or borax at walmart? I have alkalinity up, should i go a head with thay?
    Alkalinity Up is usually Baking Soda. You will end up with a TA of 375 if you used enough of it to get your pH back up. Your TA should be 60-80 so this would be a bad idea.

    You can get both Borax and Washing Soda in the laundry isle. Note that amounts I calculated were by volume so use a measuring cup. It would also help you immensely to become familiar with the Pool Calculator.
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    Quote Originally Posted by JesseWV
    Alkalinity Up is usually Baking Soda. You will end up with a TA of 375 if you used enough of it to get your pH back up. Your TA should be 60-80 so this would be a bad idea.
    i ment is it safe to use when adding the washing soda? or should i wait till i get the ph back up? noted pool calculator will be my new wife! i just havent got to it cause i dont have the proper test kit yet.
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    I would be more worried about getting your pH back up right now. It is safe but it's still good practive to allow mixing time between different chemical additions. I made this mistake when I opened for the first time and it resulted in cloudy water for quite awhile so be careful.

    Adding 11oz of Washing Soda will increase your TA by 18, bringing it up to 48. That's assuming the initial pool store number is accurate.
    After letting it circulate, If you add 10oz of Baking Soda that will increase your TA by an additional 12 resulting in a TA of 60.

    Quote Originally Posted by solodare
    i ment is it safe to use when adding the washing soda? or should i wait till i get the ph back up? noted pool calculator will be my new wife! i just havent got to it cause i dont have the proper test kit yet.
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    dude told me to add 5lbs of alkalinity up! im just going to add the washing soda like you said. after that should i just wait for the test kit before doing anything else? it will be here on the 7th. thanks btw, your help is soooo appreciated!
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    Adding 5lb (80oz) of Sodium Bicarb (Baking Soda/alkalinity up) would only raise your pH by 0.2 but raise TA by 100.

    Quote Originally Posted by solodare
    dude told me to add 5lbs of alkalinity up! im just going to add the washing soda like you said. after that should i just wait for the test kit before doing anything else? it will be here on the 7th. thanks btw, your help is soooo appreciated!
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    Quote Originally Posted by solodare
    ... after that should i just wait for the test kit before doing anything else? it will be here on the 7th. thanks btw, your help is soooo appreciated!
    No problem. You still need to follow this from my previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by JesseWV
    If your SWG hasn't brought your FC up to at least 1ppm by now, you need to get some chlorine in your pool after the pH settles in. I would at least add 9oz of bleach if you're still at 0ppm. Once you get your stabilizer dissolved (see #3) your target FC will be 5ppm.

    You need stabilizer (CYA) in your water or you'll be running your SWG cell into an early death. Most of the chlorine generated will be quickly destroyed by UV radiation every day. The recommended level for SWG pools is around 70ppm for which you will need 43oz of Cynauric Acid. The recommend method is to fill an old tube sock or t-shirt and hang it near the return jet. With occasional squeezing it should be dissolved in a day or two. Keep in mind you probably won't be able to get an accurate CYA test reading for about a week.
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    JesseWV, thanks so much! i just added the washing powder. i think i can go to sleep now. if the PH is right in the morning I'll add the 9oz of bleach and the CYA.
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    I really hope you didn't add washing powder. I hope it was washing soda. There's a difference.

    We'll know in a bit when you come back with OMG my pool is a huge bubble bath!
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    If this is the same pool I have (Intex Ultra Frame 14' x 48") then your volume estimate may be a little high @ 4600 gal.
    It's listed as having 3861 gallons @ 90% capacity (3' 7").
    Even a perfect cylinder at those exact dimentions (14' x 3'7") would have ~4156 gallons.

    Just wanted to let you know you could probably be using ~15% less additives.
    ~3800 gal AG. Vinyl. Cartridge. 1k gal/hr Pump. Adding SWG soon.

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    LOL no bubble trouble. but my pH is up in the add acid mark again. 8.4, just when i think im getting the idea of how this stuff works, it kicks me right in the teeth. its rainning here this am but not like a heavy rain at all. so i guess i just added to much washing soda?

    barlelylegible thanks for the input. ive seen that stat before in the intex book but all the pool calculators point to 4600. i guess i should start looking at the 4000 flat mark? it is the same pool as yours. what are you going with (volume wise)?
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    I'm going with 3800, but I'm not quite at 90% full. I'm off level by about 1.5 inches.
    Will need to be working on my ground some more before next year. Also, I need to put something under the pool legs, so I may be doing it this year

    4600 is the volume if you had an exact cylinder that is 14'x4' filled 100%.
    This pool is NOT an exact cylinder at all and at the widest section ~14'.
    Going about 4k would probably be close enough. Closer than 4600 for sure.

    Could be part of the reason your PH went up more than expected.

    If you don't mind answering a couple questions...
    You using the "Intex Krystal Clear Saltwater Filtration System"?
    I'm about to order one. Is the setup easy? How much salt did you add?
    ~3800 gal AG. Vinyl. Cartridge. 1k gal/hr Pump. Adding SWG soon.

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    Re: mixed messages about MA

    barleylegiable, i agree, 4600 seems like it must be too much.

    the swg set up is realy basic. Im using the pump that came with the pool and the connection to the pump that goes to the swg is a bit skecthy but i havent seen a leak yet. its all pretty easy.let me know if you have any problems hooking it up.

    if you want i can post some pics in the underconstuction threads showing what we did. but that will have to be tonight when i get home.
    i added about 75 lbs of salt so far and was told it was low but that was from the same kid that told me my pH was way high when it was realy perfect. my test kit comes tomorrow so let me get back to you on how much i end up using.
    INTEX 14' X 4'
    1000 GPH PUMP
    SWG
    taylor K-2006 K-1766
    SKOOBA VAC

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