Pump sizing need help

[Logik]

I just recently bought a house that came with an abandoned pool with attached spa. The main pump was stolen or otherwise removed. So i have been doing a lot of research on what size pump to use. I assume it originally had a 2 speed pump to accommodate the spa here r the specs of the pool.

15' x 36' pool
-Estimated 14,000 gallons
-3 - 3/8" jets (they appear to me)
-2 skimmers
-Pool cleaner attachment that has its own 3/4 horse pump
-250lb hayward pro sand filter rated at 52gpm (50psi)
-I assume it has a floor drain also
-Farthest run of piping is 67' (from farthest pool jet to main pump(pump is really only maybe 25' from edge of pool))
-piping is 2" from drain and skimmers to pump
-piping is 1 1/2" return to pool

Attached spa
-4 jets (appear to be 7/16" jets)
-2" piping to jets
-spills over into pool

My questions:
-pool pump size if i do just a pump for the pool or a 2 speed for both ( i am thinking about doing separate pumps)
-spa pump size if separated
-if i separate them i assume there is no way to isolate the spa so i wont have to constantly heat water and be warming the pool up.(spa only has jets no return?) seems like it would be very inefficient that way.
-is it a good idea to put separate pumps on them so i can run them separately or at the same time(what is everyone's opinion)

Concerns:
-not putting too much pressure on the sand filter
-amount of head on the pump to push 70'
-energy efficiency to keep bills down(not oversizing pumps) and i dont want to pay a ton for variable speed

I have been looking at hayward super pump or hayward Tristar(my current equip is all hayward)
I hope I have covered everything. I personally have 0 pool experience and knowledge just what i have learned from research. Everyone's help is greatly appreciated!
Also i have had to type all of this from my phone so please excuse any mistakes!

 

[mas985]

Welcome to the forum!

Can you take a picture of your equipment pad and post it on the forum? This may help with the recommendations.

If you have a separate return for the spa, other than the jets, then two pumps might make sense. Otherwise, you may be better off with a single pump and since you have multiple features a VS may be the better solution so that you have some flexibility in changing flow rates. Do you currently have a controller or planning to get one?

 

[Logik]

I am at work and my phone won't let me upload pics; I will post some pictures tonight when i get the kids in bed. Other than the jets in the spa there arent any other returns( at least not to my knowledge i cant see the bottom due to dirt/leaves). The pool didnt come with any controller and i hadn't planned on getting one. I was hoping to keep expenses as low as possible to get it up and running.

 

[mas985]

You would probably spend less for an Intelliflo VS than you would for two pumps so that may be the way to go. It has a built in timer and controls so you don't need an external controller. The Hayward Ecostar has the same features and unlike the VS, the control box can be mounted on the wall near the pump which is a nice feature but it costs more too.

The only issue with a single pump will be the filter but I suspect that they were running high flow rates through the filter anyway. It isn't ideal but the filter probably survived that. You could build in a bypass that is engaged when using the spa. Does the spa have a heater?

The cheapest solution would be a single two speed pump but the bypass would probably still be a good idea. If you go this route, let me know and I can size for the spa jets. But the problem is going to be getting the flow rate for those jets to be fairly strong, you will probably need a big pump. Downsizing the nozzles to 3/8" means you can get away with a smaller pump and flow rates (60 GPM vs 80 GPM).

 

[Logik]

Took me a while to figure out how to upload thru my phone. What i have figured is I can buy a 1hp or whatever size pump for the pool right now and next year get a big pump for the spa. The prices i am seeing for a 1hp hayward super pump is about 300 and about 400 for 2hp. Let me know if these pictures are good enough. As for the jet sizes I am not certain, is it measured by inner pipe diameter or jet head opening size? I had assumed that to use the spa you have to put the sand filter on bypass but really i know nothin about pools!

 

[mas985]

The jet is measured by the inner jet head orifice diameter. You might want to investigate if you can downsize the jet. This would make the system operate better with a smaller pump.

Your setup is really not ideal for using two pumps and it wouldn't benefit much with two pumps. I would recommend a single pump with a filter bypass. BTW, do you use the filter for your pool or only the spa?

Also, what is the distance between the pump and the spa and is the spa raised?

Have you ruled out a VS pump?

 

[Logik]

I have never used the pool or the equipment at all. I assume the filter cant handle the flow rate needed for the spa. The spa is connected to the pool and is not raised, it is probably a 50' run to the pump from the spa.

My idea with 2 pumps would be to y the inlet pipes and then run into the 2 pumps. The spa pump would go thru the heater and to the spa jets only. The pool pump would go thru the filter then to the pool jets only. Is that a bad idea? The only reason im not too interested in VS is the $1200 price tag, seemed to me i could get 2 pumps for less(I am trying to keep the initial cost of opening the pool to a minimum even if that means no big pump for the spa for another year). Also then i wouldn't have to change the setup of the valves everytime I want to use the spa, just turn the spa pump on and go.

Thank you for all of your help so far. I hope to figure out what pump to get and get the pool up and running soon. I cant clean it until i have a pump!

 

[Logik]

Here are some pictures of my pool for your entertainment, it's going to take a lot of work for sure!

 

[Highlandreef]

Hi, are you in the Chicagoland area?
I pass a home on the way to work that basically did the same thing for covering the pool.
I personally would start with just getting everything cleaned up so you can see what's what on that pool before purchasing a pump. That pool could very well have jets in the floor, cleaning system or who knows what else?

 

[Logik]

I'm in the atlanta area. I think this covering is pretty standard for foreclosures. They have to ensure no one can drown in it. I have to base everything off of how the plumbing system looks. Based on the return lines i am guessing its 2 skimmers, pool vacuum and a floor drain. That is using the little bit of pool knowledge I have.

 

[Logik]

Also the wife won't let me uncover it until i have the equipment and everything ready to go because she is worried about the kids getting into it.

 

[mas985]

My idea with 2 pumps would be to y the inlet pipes and then run into the 2 pumps. The spa pump would go thru the heater and to the spa jets only. The pool pump would go thru the filter then to the pool jets only. Is that a bad idea?

I would not recommend that. The plumbing will not support two pumps at the same time very well. The head loss will be very high and efficiency will suffer. A better idea is to use a single pump size properly for the jets but allow for the flow to spit 50/50 between the filter/heater and a direct path. Most of the water will be bypassed but some will go through the filter and heater so those will continue to work properly.

The only reason im not too interested in VS is the $1200 price tag, seemed to me i could get 2 pumps for less(I am trying to keep the initial cost of opening the pool to a minimum even if that means no big pump for the spa for another year). Also then i wouldn't have to change the setup of the valves everytime I want to use the spa, just turn the spa pump on and go.

The Intelliflo VS can be purchased around $900. http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/poolsupp ... 011018.htm
It also has a built in timer. So it is not all that much more than a regular pump and certainly cheaper than two pumps. This will give you the most flexibility so that sizing of a two speed pump is not necessary. Plus a real bonus is that you will have variable strength spa jets so you can set them to what ever strength you want.

 

[Logik]

So if i put a vs pump on i still need a bypass to take the surplus pressure off of the filter? Is there pressure regulating valves for that or do u recommend a ball valve or maybe a jandy valve? I am definitely considering a vs pump now if i can fit it into the budget .

 

[mas985]

Yes I would still recommend a bypass unless you are planning to up size the filter in the near future.

There are two ways you could configure it. Use two tees with a 2-way Jandy valve in the bypass pipe or use 1 tee and 1 3-way valve instead. Since your system is not automated, switching to spa mode will require changing several valves so one more should not be that big of an issue.

 

[Logik]

Could you tell me what size pump i would need for just the pool as it stands? My father said he would pay to get the pool up and running but that was with a regular pump he isn't going to go for a 900 dollar pump, trust me i tried So if i went with a super pump to just run the pool what size would u recommend or even a pentair pump.

Also can you tell me the numbers you are basing it off of such as 70' of head, 14k gallons recirculated every 8 hrs is X gpm needed. Etc. I really appreciate the help! I want to get at least the pool up this year.

 

[mas985]

For just the pool, smaller is better but all IG pumps will turnover the pool faster than 8 hours so size is really not the issue. The 3/4 HP Superflo will probably deliver over 47 GPM (38' of head) which is less than a 5 hour turnover. The 3/4 HP is a 115v pump so if you have 230v, you might want to go with the 1 HP Superflo. But if you want to save energy, get the two speed version. Just keep in mind that neither pump will not provide enough flow rate for the spa jets.

BTW, I can give you more accurate flow rate numbers if you can answer the following questions:

Number and size the eyeball returns? I guessed two 1" eyeballs.
From the pad picture, what are the suction side pipes (3) coming from?
Does your spa have a main drain and can you isolate the spa from the pool? (suction and return spa only)

 

[Logik]

My pool has 3 eyeball returns and they are 1". The 3 suction side pipes im not sure of. I originally thought it was 1 per each skimmer in the pool and one for the pool drain. But with everything as dirty as it is, its really hard to tell. I am not sure if the spa can be isolated or not i didnt think so since it spills over but I don't know. I had figured the spill over was the return for the spa

I have 220v supply to the pad. It is on a 30 amp breaker but i didnt look at the wire size to see if i can put it on a 40 or bigger. Is it better to get a 110v or 220v pump or is there a difference in efficiency or flow? So what do u estimate the amount of head of my pool to be because i had read that it was the distance of the longest return piping line which is almost 70 feet from the pump to the far side of the pool. Thats a long ways considering the pump isnt far from the pool really.

Not to disregard your earlier advice but i am still considering 2 pumps and later when i put a spa pump on i can wire it thru a relay that it will kill the pool pump when the spa is turned on to eliminate the head issue(never more than 1 pump running). I kinda have to work with what I am given and since my father in law will pay but only so much i need to take advantage of what i have offered. Even if that means no real flow thru the spa jets just yet.

Hope I'm not asking too many questions I am very analytically minded. But i do appreciate the help and I am trying to get the equipment ordered as soon as possible. Also do u prefer pentair to hayward? I am inpartial at this point.

 

[mas985]

Is it better to get a 110v or 220v pump or is there a difference in efficiency or flow?

No difference only convenience to what to you have.

So what do u estimate the amount of head of my pool to be because i had read that it was the distance of the longest return piping line which is almost 70 feet from the pump to the far side of the pool. Thats a long ways considering the pump isnt far from the pool really.

Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Distance is only once factor and a minor one at that but it also depends on the size of pipe, the number fittings and the equipment. It is a fairly complicated calculation and multiple equations need to be solved for both the plumbing curve and pump curve intersection. As I posted above, your plumbing head loss should be around 38' of head but it will depend on the configuration of the suction plumbing.

Not to disregard your earlier advice but i am still considering 2 pumps and later when i put a spa pump on i can wire it thru a relay that it will kill the pool pump when the spa is turned on to eliminate the head issue(never more than 1 pump running). I kinda have to work with what I am given and since my father in law will pay but only so much i need to take advantage of what i have offered. Even if that means no real flow thru the spa jets just yet.

But then why not just get the one pump that will satisfy both the pool and the spa? The pump can run on high for the spa and low for the pool. But to size the pump, you need to figure out the plumbing configuration.

In fact, if you are willing to change out the jet nozzles, you might be able to use a small pump to run the spa as well. The Superflo 1 HP might enough to have moderate strength with 3/8" nozzles.

 

[Logik]

Well my intelliflo will be here soon. I uncovered the pool and now to start cleaning! Thanks for the advice. I'm sure I will have plenty more questions to come.

I am thinking about switching over to salt maybe next year if it sounds like it is going to be easier to maintain and cost less in chemicals. But thats a topic for another section.