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Thread: My new million gallon pool!

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    ColdAirGuy's Avatar
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    My new million gallon pool!

    Just curious as to what everyone here thinks, i'm just picturing all that chlorine burning up as it's fed, along with the moola.
    Anyone have experience with Ozone generators? I'm thinking we should be looking into an ozone generator for the long term cost savings.
    Anthony 16,000 Gallon Oval, White plaster, 30' Long 15' Wide 5 1/2' Deep end 3 1/2' shallow end.
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    No cya?? By the mention of the presence of seagulls, I'm guessing this is outside. I would think adding cya would make the chlorine consumption much less! Why not treat it like a pool?
    Indiana, ABG 24'x52" Galveston by Blue Cascade (Craigslist buy w/part of deck included), 13,500 gallons, Intex SWG, solar panels mix 2, TF-100 test kit.

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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Well if it's really a million gallons according to the Pool Calculator you need to add 250 pounds to get a CYA of 30.
    chiefwej
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    ColdAirGuy's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Yes it's outside, and a million gallons.
    I'm new here and ruffling feathers is not the fun thing to do, but hey perhaps it will earn me an attaboy?!?
    Anthony 16,000 Gallon Oval, White plaster, 30' Long 15' Wide 5 1/2' Deep end 3 1/2' shallow end.
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Ouch!
    Indiana, ABG 24'x52" Galveston by Blue Cascade (Craigslist buy w/part of deck included), 13,500 gallons, Intex SWG, solar panels mix 2, TF-100 test kit.

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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Best price I could find is about $59 for a 25lb. pail. So $250 -$500 depending on what you want the CYA level to be. Should save that back in Chlorine cost in no time.
    chiefwej
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    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    ColdAirGuy's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Thanks, that's about the price I found too.

    I've already mentioned the CYA issue once, and it fell on deaf ears....need to convince these people that this is a cost saving issue which is difficult when our "water treatment expert" hasn't mentioned it ever.
    Anthony 16,000 Gallon Oval, White plaster, 30' Long 15' Wide 5 1/2' Deep end 3 1/2' shallow end.
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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    I'm just thinking out loud here....and I'm an idiot.

    In many states public pools have a laws that require a VERY low FC level for public pools. Maybe there is some stabilizer in the pool but a very low level.....thus allowing the company to keep the FC levels low as well. If you have a CYA level of 20 (which is like 0 when testing)...your target FC is 2. Many states require a max of 3ppm or the pool must be closed. Also....several states "strongly discourage" the use of CYA. Here's a quote from Penn. laws for public pools.

    The use of Cyanuric Acid, stabilizer, trichlor, and dichlor is not recommended in Pennsylvania aquatic facilities
    Cyanuric acid can cause adverse human health effects and can eliminate chlorine’s effectiveness against Cryptosporidia.

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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Ozone wouldn't help. Adding even 5 ppm of CYA would greatly reduce the chlorine usage, though it would also require recalibrating your ORP target.
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    ColdAirGuy's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Thanks for the input guys....

    My concern was the fact that we are dumping so much chlorine into this thing on a weekly basis. I am by no means an expert on any of this obviously, How would the ORP setpoint be affected Jason? From what I've read 650 to 750 in the controller handbook is sufficient.
    Anthony 16,000 Gallon Oval, White plaster, 30' Long 15' Wide 5 1/2' Deep end 3 1/2' shallow end.
    Pentair Intelliflo, FNS Plus 60sf. DE, Pentair Intellibrite 5G
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Having ORP at 850 is certainly too high, and could lead to corrosion from high FC levels.

    CYA changes the ORP response curve. All of the ORP numbers will be lower when there is CYA in the water. If you go that route, you need to measure the FC level and adjust FC till it is where you want it, and then set the ORP controller to whatever it reads when you have the FC level you want to have.
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    I'm gonna just drop an excerpt from bikeshed.com about Parkinson's Law, about why it is easier to build a power plane than a bike shed, and let you draw your own parallels...

    Parkinson shows how you can go in to the board of directors and
    get approval for building a multi-million or even billion dollar
    atomic power plant, but if you want to build a bike shed you will
    be tangled up in endless discussions.

    Parkinson explains that this is because an atomic plant is so vast,
    so expensive and so complicated that people cannot grasp it, and
    rather than try, they fall back on the assumption that somebody
    else checked all the details before it got this far. Richard P.
    Feynmann gives a couple of interesting, and very much to the point,
    examples relating to Los Alamos in his books.

    A bike shed on the other hand. Anyone can build one of those over
    a weekend, and still have time to watch the game on TV. So no
    matter how well prepared, no matter how reasonable you are with
    your proposal, somebody will seize the chance to show that he is
    doing his job, that he is paying attention, that he is *here*.

    In Denmark we call it "setting your fingerprint". It is about
    personal pride and prestige, it is about being able to point
    somewhere and say "There! *I* did that." It is a strong trait in
    politicians, but present in most people given the chance. Just
    think about footsteps in wet cement.
    [center:1kpalu48]Helpful Links: Pool School | CYA/Chlorine Chart | Pool Calculator[/center:1kpalu48]

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    ColdAirGuy's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Thanks for that excerpt Ohm.....very true.

    Jason, thanks for the lesson here
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Having ORP at 850 is certainly too high, and could lead to corrosion from high FC levels.

    CYA changes the ORP response curve. All of the ORP numbers will be lower when there is CYA in the water. If you go that route, you need to measure the FC level and adjust FC till it is where you want it, and then set the ORP controller to whatever it reads when you have the FC level you want to have.
    What is the reason an ORP sensor is used to determine when to feed chlorine vs. an actual sensor measuring free chlorine?
    I've noticed the daily log for the water treatment (log contains PH, ORP and FC) the free chlorine can be anywhere between 1 and 3.5 ppm at any given time. The swings are pretty wide.
    Anthony 16,000 Gallon Oval, White plaster, 30' Long 15' Wide 5 1/2' Deep end 3 1/2' shallow end.
    Pentair Intelliflo, FNS Plus 60sf. DE, Pentair Intellibrite 5G
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Having spent many years as a Fire Chief, I would present a multimillion dollar budget and most of the discussion would be about magazine subscriptions. The powers that be always defer the discussion to a topic they feel they can grasp. Moral: If you can't dazzle them with your footwork, baffle them with your B.S.
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Quote Originally Posted by ColdAirGuy
    What is the reason an ORP sensor is used to determine when to feed chlorine vs. an actual sensor measuring free chlorine?
    ORP sensors cost about $150 to $300, FC sensors cost around $800 to $2000 (and were far more than that until recently). FC sensors are also rather sensitive to fouling with various chemicals which can ruin the sensor. ORP has all kinds of problems, but none the less it is the most cost effective thing available.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Lershac's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    I would take the guy responsible for maintaining it to lunch a few times and veeeery slowly feed him the idea and let him think it's his idea. If you go over his head he will be an enemy, and if you let him have it he will recognize you as a team player who knows his politics, and has smart ideas to boot.
    (DIY):16K Gal 20X30 rectangular IG Gunite, w/spa, CCP 520 filter,2 Pentair VS pumps, 400KBTU Pentair gas heater, Heat Pump for cooling, **update5.25.2013** added an intellichem with acid pump that will control existing SWG. My Build Thread Here

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    ColdAirGuy's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Quote Originally Posted by ColdAirGuy
    What is the reason an ORP sensor is used to determine when to feed chlorine vs. an actual sensor measuring free chlorine?
    ORP sensors cost about $150 to $300, FC sensors cost around $800 to $2000 (and were far more than that until recently). FC sensors are also rather sensitive to fouling with various chemicals which can ruin the sensor. ORP has all kinds of problems, but none the less it is the most cost effective thing available.

    Thanks for the info, helped me quite a bit.


    P.s...Lershac- The guy responsible is a paid outside contractor.
    The guys I have tried to explain this to are my supervisors who are of the mindset that "it's been like this forever" why change anything now, it works!

    I'll have to keep my own daily log on the amount of chlorine we are currently using with zero CYA
    Anthony 16,000 Gallon Oval, White plaster, 30' Long 15' Wide 5 1/2' Deep end 3 1/2' shallow end.
    Pentair Intelliflo, FNS Plus 60sf. DE, Pentair Intellibrite 5G
    TF100 Testkit

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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    I think that you should treat it as a regular pool, following the guidelines here. I would think that the chlorine usage should not be more than 20 gallons of 12.5 % sodium hypochlorite per day (140 gallons per week).

    I think that you should be using at least 40 ppm CYA, testing the FC using FAS-DPD at least once or twice per day and adjusting the chlorine feed rate based on FC readings, not ORP.

    You might want to consider a salt system.

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    ColdAirGuy's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW
    I think that you should treat it as a regular pool, following the guidelines here. I would think that the chlorine usage should not be more than 20 gallons of 12.5 % sodium hypochlorite per day (140 gallons per week).

    I think that you should be using at least 40 ppm CYA, testing the FC using FAS-DPD at least once or twice per day and adjusting the chlorine feed rate based on FC readings, not ORP.

    You might want to consider a salt system.

    Thanks for the input James,

    I just looked at the FC log for the pool and it's jumped from 0 to 3.5 and everywhere in between during the past two weeks.

    I would be afraid to suggest salt as we tend to repair pinhole leaks here and there on a regular basis.

    I'm with you on feeding via the FC readings and just using the ORP as a reference. Have to look at for the most feasible, cost effective way to bring on our feed pumps.
    Anthony 16,000 Gallon Oval, White plaster, 30' Long 15' Wide 5 1/2' Deep end 3 1/2' shallow end.
    Pentair Intelliflo, FNS Plus 60sf. DE, Pentair Intellibrite 5G
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    Lershac's Avatar
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    Re: My new million gallon pool!

    Man that is almost someones salary right there... Just going poof in the sunlight every week. A shame, but there is waste like that everywhere in industry... its amazing sometimes how waste gets ignored as long as the company itself overall is profitable.
    (DIY):16K Gal 20X30 rectangular IG Gunite, w/spa, CCP 520 filter,2 Pentair VS pumps, 400KBTU Pentair gas heater, Heat Pump for cooling, **update5.25.2013** added an intellichem with acid pump that will control existing SWG. My Build Thread Here

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