I may be a chemist... but the pool is smarter than I am!

[wetchem]

Well, things have settled into a nice routine, test, adjust if needed, test, stick hand in and chill to bone, watch kids turn blue, test adjust, repeat--- YEA!

I am still seeing that rust brown precipitate settle out on the bottom of the pool so I'm still using the paper towels as a pre-filter in the strainer basket. I sweep the bottom of the pool every-night and the towels are still trapping the junk; however, it takes a day or two before they are turning a slight orange/rust colour. Amazing how much Cl- the sun will take out of the pool during the day. I'll have to get the cover back on it while we're not using it (got lazzzzy with the cover... pain to get on and the wind likes to take it off so it can go swimming )

Thnx again for everyone's help...

Btw: if you want to see what the paper-towels can do drop over to: http://www.troublefreepool.com/a-tale-of-two-filters-and-ugly-rusty-water-t46130.html

 

[wetchem]

So the TA just seems to be hovering:
7.7pH; 5.3FC; 200TA; 140CH; 30CYA

I've been using the HTH pH-Minus... will the muriatic pull this down faster?

Dirt all over the bottom, birdnest floating... gota love the wind, the ally-way, and the birds. Seems the skimmer is a feeding bowl full of june-bugs and other creepy-crawlers that the birds like.

-wc

 

[Smykowski]

I've been using the HTH pH-Minus... will the muriatic pull this down faster?

In the same way that chlorine is chlorine is chlorine, acid is acid is acid. Lowering pH with acid has the same effect on TA, whether it's dry acid or MA. For example, in your pool, 5oz of muriatic acid and 7 oz (by weight) of dry acid will both lower your pH to 7.5 and lower your TA by 5 ppm.

 

[wetchem]

In the same way that chlorine is chlorine is chlorine, acid is acid is acid.

:?: It just seems to me that the HTH stuff isn't touching the TA one bit... either that or the test I'm using in the lab is the wrong one, which I doubt, as it's a Hach/Nalco test we use in our cooling tower basins. Want to talk about a big swimming pool - but boy is it ever cold, and I'm not too sure about some of the chemicals, maybe food grade; however, I don't think I really want to swim in them!

Whereas I understand that when it comes to lowering TA, one acid will work in the same manner as another; however, "acid isn't acid..." hydrochloric acid (HCl) is a monoprotic acid where as sulfuric acid is di-protic and a very strong oxidizing acid whereas HCl is not normally considered to be an oxidizer. Then we have nitric acid, perchloric acid, acetic acid, and so forth each of these having different activities and oxidizing potentials.

Now, I wouldn't want to put sulfuric, nitric, or perchloric acids in the swimming pools... might dissolve the kiddies and I'm not allowed my Mama to dissolve the kiddies (yet, might get to do that when they become teen-agers (evil laugh )


So I decided to bump the CYA up a tad more... on the low end with a 30 and I keep droping 2 to 4ppmFC during the day putting me somewhat too close to 0 for my comfort (so if I had 4 overnight then when I come home I have between 0 and 2FC). It holds overnight so I'm fairly certain things are OK.

SO, I'm getting to the point of ordering the nice test kit as I can't always run the tests in the lab due to projects etc... thus, when ordering the test kit which one of the sites listed at (http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/pool_test_kit_comparison is better to order from? If it makes any difference, I'm sitting here, somewhat in the middle, in Nebraska and I am really considering the TF100.

-wc

 

[Isaac-1]

I use the TFTestkits TF-100 and am very happy with it, for one thing unlike the Taylor K-2006 the TF-100 gives you more of the reagents you use the most, also TFTestkits sponsors this site (you get a discount there if you join here as a life supporter). One nice addition to the TF-100 is the Taylor speedstir (it is no means a professional grade lab magnetic stirer, but for the price it does a good job)

.

 

[chem geek]

For the purposes of lowering pH, both Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) and dry acid (93.2% sodium bisulfate) are the same for lowering pH and TA though it takes 25-1/2 fluid ounces of Muriatic Acid to lower the TA by 10 ppm in 10,000 gallons while it takes 34 ounces weight (about 23 ounces volume) to do the same thing so they are roughly sized in concentration to use the same volume for the same effect.

The only difference is that the Muriatic Acid results in chloride increasing while the dry acid results in sulfate increasing. High sulfate levels can be a problem for splash-out to soft stones and can be an issue for some times of scale especially in saltwater chlorine generators so generally we recommend Muriatic Acid. If the fumes bother you, you can use half-strength which fumes less.

 

[aa62579]

So the TA just seems to be hovering:
7.7pH; 5.3FC; 200TA; 140CH; 30CYA

I've been using the HTH pH-Minus... will the muriatic pull this down faster?

Dirt all over the bottom, birdnest floating... gota love the wind, the ally-way, and the birds. Seems the skimmer is a feeding bowl full of june-bugs and other creepy-crawlers that the birds like.

-wc

Are you using the instructions on the bottle or using the pool calculator with your TA plugged in to figure out how much of it to add? A TA of 200 will require basically twice the amount of dry acid (pH minus) or MA than the default TA of 100. If your directions are based off only your gallons and how much you need to lower pH, you will not have been using enough product which would explain why you are not getting the desired results.

 

[wetchem]

Are you using the instructions on the bottle or using the pool calculator with your TA plugged....

From the pool calc... of course I've had to bring the level back up a few days ago, maybe that the city water has such a high TA that I'm just fighting a loosing battle.

 

[aa62579]

Are you using the instructions on the bottle or using the pool calculator with your TA plugged....

From the pool calc... of course I've had to bring the level back up a few days ago, maybe that the city water has such a high TA that I'm just fighting a loosing battle.

My fill water has a TA of 325. I've given up on caring what my TA is (aside for needing it for calculations) and only focus on addressing my pH when it gets to 7.8. Being in Texas and normally needing to top off 1-2 times per week, only so much progress can be made.

I've only ever used MA, but I haven't ever had any trouble getting my pH to drop. It may not drop as much as the calculator predicts, but the father you get from TA of 100, the less precise the measurements are. I will add the amount it takes to go from 7.8 to 7.0 and by the time I test it the next day, I am at 7.2-7.3. I've never gone back out after an hour or so of circulating to take a reading to see the exact effect - just gotten to know how my pool responds and adjust accordingly.

The next time you add the Ph minus, I'd retest the water after 30 minutes to an hour to really see what effect it had. (And that would be assuming doing nothing else in that hour time frame.)

**Something else I just considered - I have forgotten a lot of the middle of this thread, but I know you were using test strips at first and recently talked about getting a kit. Is your TA from the test strips or from something from the lab? Strips are often off by quite a bit. Could your TA actually be much higher and would, therefore, require more acid?

 

[linen]

From the pool calc... of course I've had to bring the level back up a few days ago, maybe that the city water has such a high TA that I'm just fighting a loosing battle.

Didn't know you added a lot of water. Since you TA was high to begin with (higher than 300 ppm I believe), I would guess your fill is still quite high in TA. I have a well and my TA coming out of the ground sometimes is over 400 ppm, so when I raise my level up in the spring, I always have to aerate to get my TA low for my swg.

 

[wetchem]

Didn't think I'd added that much... I really should check the feed water for iron levels and TA
-So, from the last time I added stuff (6/11) when I added the pHMinus I did drop the pH down to the 7.5 range. I did add a few oz of Cl- too come to think of it along with the CYA as the level was around 2ish (strips); however, the next morning in the lab the pH was 7.5 and the FC was 5.
Yesterday: 7.6pH; 4FC; 200TA; 140CH (lab tests)
ran out if the stuff to check CYA however I;m guessing that I'm between 40 to 50 based on the amount I've added (about 23oz by vol).
Today: 7.7pH; 4FC; 200TA; 140CH (lab tests) (and a FULL day of sun :-D )
I haven't added anything since the 11th... just skim the surface, sweep the bottom to get the stuff to swirl and run the filter. Guess I really should vacuum that junk from the bottom instead of just sweeping.

So other than the dirt... and something white, swirls up when I try to get a sample of it, It looks like things are stable... been in the pool once myself now and the kids several times. That water is still cold.

As for that white stuff, at first I thought it was sand from the filter; however, I wouldn't think it would swirl. The ally has this white crushed rock in it so I'm thinking it might be from there as a lot of traffic goes thru the ally due to the appartment complex down the block and their parking garage.

... but I know you were using test strips at first and recently talked about getting a kit. Is your TA from the test strips or from something from the lab?

A little of both, as I am doing both, strips at home with confirmation in the lab... actually the strips go from 180 to 240, or something like that, the 200TA is from the lab titration. As soon as the budget will allow I will be getting the test kit... as I'm sure it is for most, money is tight.

-wc

 

[RobbieH]

You are right about the sand, if it were from the filter it would be gritty.

 

[wetchem]

You are right about the sand, if it were from the filter it would be gritty.

That's what I was thinking. I wrapped part of that old t-shirt around the leaf skimmer and tried to "filter" catch it... got some interesting treeparts and a stick... but nothing white/grainy. The material did change a tad in colour to brown (very light) but that took alot of swishing to get the junk swirled up... and it doesn't settle very fast; thus, I don't think it's sand from the filter but silt from the ally.

THe reason I was thinking it was the sand at first is that the 1st stuff I filled with was pure white - purchased from a Pool&Spa store in Omaha (for anyone here in NE, it's in that small shopping center next to Sam's on L). It was labeled #20 Silica Sand for pool and spa use. However, I ended up topping the stuff off with a few pounds of #20 pool sand stuff I purchased locally at Menards (don't live in Omaha... would be nice sometimes... but I kindof like the more laid back life here).

One of these days I'll get brave enough to pull the multiport and take a look at the sand level... haven't done it yet... learned from the old school guys (Grandpa and his buddies) that if something works, don't megger with it!

OK, sounds like the girls are having a time with the toddlers... we had a sleep over last night... gota love the 9yearolds and I need to get the dirt sucked out so they can go swimming!

-wc

-wc

 

[wetchem]

duhhhh, always look for the simple solutions.... I was going to vacuum the pool so the kid could get in it and then top it off with the good old iron loaded city water... then it dawned on me, I have that silly looking venturi-vac that came with the pool and my thought was, why put all that junk in the filter or waste the water - I have to top it off anyway. So, here I've been trying to get a sample of the white stuff to see if it's the sand - so a fine mesh bag on the catch, checked to see if the #20 would stay in (and it does), and off to fill the pool.

Thankfully, not sand... the stuff just puffed right on thru the mesh so I'll end up sucking that junk out to the waste.

Bit the bullet and ordered the TF100 kit this afternoon... not in the budget... but I'll get to play chemist at home now too!!!
Can't wait to get the muriatic acid, that'll trip the neighbors!

-wc

 

[linen]

Bit the bullet and ordered the TF100 kit this afternoon... not in the budget... but I'll get to play chemist at home now too!!!

...it will change your life

 

[wetchem]

The next time you add the Ph minus, I'd retest the water after 30 minutes to an hour to really see what effect it had. (And that would be assuming doing nothing else in that hour time frame.)

OK, now I don't have the TF100 yet; however, we were throwing out an old TAYLOR-K-1682 kit that is normally used in ultra clean boiler condensate returns for amine-TA... the boss allowed me to "dispose of it." Of-course, the Chemist in me goes... sure boss... can I have it? I mean really, stored in an HVAC controlled lab, used by the lab-staff (barely) who are all trained chemists with AA/AS/BA/BS in the field or the techs that have had years in the lab. SO why toss, it is over a year old so we can't use the kit due to regs. Silly.

SO a little research and comparison of the pool water in the lab vs this kit... From the full lab test I knew the TA=200... the kit called for 25mL sample; however that took alot of the reagent. Long story short, 5mL sample and 1 drop * 10 to equal the full lab test. At least at this concentration.

Now on to your question. When I got home with the kit, it still took 20drp=ep. This morning, filled the pool (earlier post) so after the kids finished for the day I pulled out the test-strips ( ) and the kit. From the kit I figured about 240TA (expected to go up from the city water... added 3" water to the pool) plugged this into the poolcalculator along with the pH etc... so it's been maybe 3 hours since the last addition of chemicals so I went and tested the TA with this kit: 14drp=ep==140TA using the dry acid. From the strips pH=7.5; FC=4ish; TA=180/200; CH=100ish. Can't wait to see what the TF100 results are in comparison.

-wc

 

[wetchem]

Well I didn't think to get any pictures of the dark-muddy-brown-red soup I started out with; however, I thought a few pictures of where you guys helped me to get:
Sitting on a concrete pad... should have searched first on setups; I may go ahead and take this down for the winter.
Right now, I have a heavy tarp directly on the pad and then the ground cloth that came in the box on top if that; however, I think I'll go find that pink insulation board for next year.
[attachment=2:2aw736qm]LongShot.jpg[/attachment:2aw736qm]
The pump is running so you can see the surface of the water... just got finished swimming with the kids
[attachment=1:2aw736qm]AccrossTheWater.JPG[/attachment:2aw736qm]
And you can see the bottom just past the skimmer... Mr. Turttle looking for a snack.
[attachment=0:2aw736qm]MrTurttleAtSkimmer.JPG[/attachment:2aw736qm]

 

[wetchem]

Ok... and few more for the picture junkies...
at the bottom of the pool
[attachment=2:3sa4hbt8]MrTurttleFallsIn.JPG[/attachment:3sa4hbt8]
Now the high-res picuture is much clearer than this one; however, here's turttle at the bottom of the pool, focusing thru the surface with the pump running so there's some ripples making things difficult to focus:
[attachment=1:3sa4hbt8]MrTurttleCalls4Help.JPG[/attachment:3sa4hbt8]
Just one more for fun... fished him out...
[attachment=0:3sa4hbt8]MrTurttleSaved.JPG[/attachment:3sa4hbt8]

Once again:
:bowdown:

Thank you for your help!

I should have the test kit here by mid-week from what the tracking shows online. Once I get it, I hope I'm really where I think I'm at with the water chemistry. Between the lab work and the strips I should be in the ballpark...

Stay tuned... Same Bat Channel, Same Bat Time!

-wc

 

[wetchem]

Hurray... the test kit came today... and it's raining.
We reeeeeeellllllllyyyyyy need the rain... but I wanted to go play.
Maybe tomorrow.
-wc

 

[wetchem]

YEA My first set of results with the TF100:
7.3pH (I had added pH Down earlier as the lab pH was 7.8... over shot just a little....)
3.5FC (.... because I figured with the rain I would have to add bleach)
(OTO test looked to be 2 or 3, I have a hard time with yellows... got to go find my blue index card! )
0.5CC
170TA
180CH - this may be lower, had red particules in the solution that made it look purplish
40CYA

- Well... not too shabby between the strips and the lab.
:?: Should I go ahead and reshock the pool with a CC this low? It barely turned pink and it took until the very last drop of R0003. In fact, if the tube hadn't been sitting on a white counter I might not have noticed the change.

-wc