So pro team supreme PLUS adds to TA after all?

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Swampwoman

Swampwoman

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Apr 27, 2012
3,765
Grand Rapids, MI
Hi all. Still a newbie here in first season of recovering foreclosed swamp. After clearing ocl test, etc, spent a week aerating and adding acid to bring TA down from 190-200 range to 80.

So, lazy soul that I am, I added protean supreme PLUS -- the ph neutral kind -- yesterday in two batches of 44 lbs per mfg recc, 12 hrs apart. (lazy b/c I didn't feel like questing for 20 mule team borax). My ph was 7.4 and TA 80 when I added it.

Perhaps naively, I expected it to mean it was also TA neutral when it said ph neutral.

This morning, here are my readings:
FC 5.5
CC less than .5 (10 ml test)
PH 7.8 - 7.9ish

TA 160 !!!

I did not add water or anything. I did remove the fountain and turned on my Hayward h series heater, the water has warmed from 60 to 78 this a.m.

The mfg instruction say to "adjust ph" after adding, so it's clear they don't think it's all that neutral either ;)

Is this normal, and did I misunderstand the TA impact of "neural borates"?

Or is something else going on?

I've added what acid I have left to head toward 7.5 from the acid demand test, and will need to get more, but I was looking for confirmation that this is what's supposed to happen.

Thanks in advance for the hand holding. ;)
 
She started the season with this:
Swampwoman said:
Hi all. Still a newbie here in first season of recovering foreclosed swamp. After clearing ocl test, etc, spent a week aerating and adding acid to bring TA down from 190-200 range to 80.
Click to expand...

Swampwoman wanted to add borates and keep the TA around 80 but after she added the Pro-Team Supreme, the TA rose to 160 and the pH rose to 7.8-7.9. She did not expect the TA or pH to rise since Pro-Team is labeled as "pH neutral".
 
I would expect the TA to go up by 10 or 20. Adding borates always raises the TA a little.

For the PH change, the proportions of the two ingredients (they use a mixture of an acid and a base to balance the PH) might not have been not quite correct in the batch you bought. But I can't think of anything that would explain the large TA change.
 
Hi all. Still mystified -- checked water again just now after adding acid this am. Ph is 7.4, exactly where I wanted it, but TA has not moved from 160.

Is there anything that could be happening in the heating process to cause a TA rise? Is it possible the brand of chlorine I'm using somehow adds TA? (it has performed precisely as predicted for chlorine ppm, so I figured it was fine...)

Today we want to swim, so I don't think I'll add more acid until during the week, but if you have any ideas, please share ;)
 
Okay, here's a clue: label says "after normal turnover of water, adjust ph to 7.4-7.6 using a reliable acid demand kit

Perhaps my normal turnover has not yet occurred, and the product somehow adjusts itself through the filtering process. I'll leave it alone for another day. Water sure feels perfect right now, so time to swim more and post less ;)
 
None of the common forms of chlorine affects TA (directly, some change the PH which moves the TA a little).

Generally you want to give it 24 hours to mix in and then fine tune the PH. That is there because they do have some variation in the proportions of the two ingredients, so they aren't always exactly PH neutral. But again that would have no direct effect on TA.
 
Good morning. It rained overnight but my ph appears to have stayed stable at 7.4; my TA dropped to 140 (checked twice to be sure) so the net difference is about 60 from when I treated.

I wonder if there's any chance that since I started the heater at the same time and had previously treated with a metal sequestrate if perhaps the warming water was descaling my heater?

Jason, or others, if the ph remains stable, should I leave it a spell to see if it settles further, or should I consider aerating again so that I can add enough acid to get back down to 70-80 -- vinyl liner and I'm using bleach, so lower is better, right?

Also, I get a high leaf load in this pool due to adjacent mature and bountiful landscaping, trees and forest. Eg. Skimmer basket full by the time I got home from a movie due to a little breeze! Does this kind of organic matter possibly affect TA?
 
With TA, it's really not about the number per se. It's where ever your pH becomes stable. It just happens that 70 to 80 ppm TA is what works on most pools that use bleach or a swcg. Since you're at 140 ppm I'd actively work to bring it down to about 100 or less then I'd just adjust the pH whenever it needed it to keep it in the 7.2 to 7.8 range.
 
Hi again. This a.m. I'm now at TA of 120 (FC 6, ph 7.4, Calcium of 150 -- vinyl liner).

I just figured out how to use the csi wheel and at my dropping temp (fountain for aeration seems to drop it faster) I'm at -.3 saturation.

So, even though I'm vinyl, is there any reason to increase calcium? Most seem to say keep it above 200 -- mine tested at 200 on may 14.

I will keep trying to drop TA - much slower going with the borates, it seems. Suggestions welcome about where the calcium is going. Perhaps it's my noob testing skills at work here, but I'm frequently retesting to confirm my results and get better at it!
 

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There's an old saying among automobile mechanics - Watch the oil; the gas will look out for itself. With your pool, my suggestion would be to monitor the FC and ph. Keep these where they need to be, and let the other parameters seek their best levels. Don't try to micromanage them, just watch them and see where they go. If they're not running off the rails, let them ride.
 
^That's hopefully my plan...the water is sparkling and beautiful, feels good on the skin; the cover free seems to reduce the fill needed, so it's not getting much new well water, so perhaps after this last dose tonight I'll just shut the fountain back off, heat it up again, and stick to just testing the FC and PH for a while ;) Just wanted to make sure the disappearing calcium wasn't a signal to another issue.
 
When things like calcium or CYA disappear from pool water, it is usually due to dilution, either from refilling after splashout/backwashing/leak or really heavy rain. These bear checking enough to know where they are so that you don't get sidelined by some other issue caused by their absence. If you notice loss of calcium, check the CYA too, since dilution affects them both.

As far as calcium itself is concerned, since you have a liner pool and it does not appear that you have a heater, you're probably fine.
 
Hi there. I did test the CYA this a.m., and it tested just a tich above 50, which is exactly where it's supposed to be/anticipated result - hasn't moved.
I DO have a heater -- Hayward H-series. Can't tell how many BTU but it took a day to up the temp 17 degrees...so perhaps not AS MANY BTU as I'd like...;)

We did have rain -- I've not been backwashing much -- haven't needed to refill much -- didn't see any overflow issues from deluge and no signs that it's leaking from what I can tell.

I checked my Pool Log, and note that back on May 5th, I'd recorded 160 Calcium. I hadn't checked it much, so perhaps my May 14th reading of 200 was actually in error. Sometimes those drops get away on me! I'm going to write it off to newbie-testing-fault for the moment, unless it happens again. I tested the CA twice this am with identical results, so that will be my baseline and we'll see what happens in another few weeks. I'm up for more swimming and less stewing ;)
 
This same exact thing happened to me. My TA was at 70 and my ph was 7.4 before I added the Surpreme Plus. I ran the pump for 24 hours then checked my water. My TA had shot up to 130 and my ph was over 8. Hopefully, others will read this and know they may still have to muriatic acid even with the "ph neutral" Surpreme Plus
 
Hi there. I'm wondering if they've MIS-mixed batches this year or something, because the Supreme without the Plus is not ph neutral and they say so.
When I topped up midsummer, I bought the pure boric acid from DudaDiesel online this time. For 10 lbs I had a slight increase of TA - about 15. It seemed to drop back down on it's own in a few days without acid and it didn't raise my ph - plus it's a good deal cheaper with free shipping, so that's the route I'll go to top up again next year!
 
Swampwoman said:
Hi there. I'm wondering if they've MIS-mixed batches this year or something, because the Supreme without the Plus is not ph neutral and they say so.
When I topped up midsummer, I bought the pure boric acid from DudaDiesel online this time. For 10 lbs I had a slight increase of TA - about 15. It seemed to drop back down on it's own in a few days without acid and it didn't raise my ph - plus it's a good deal cheaper with free shipping, so that's the route I'll go to top up again next year!
Click to expand...

You may be right. And I bought mine near the same time you did. I had to wait until I got my TA low enough to add it.

Thanks for the tip. I will go that route next time :)
 
Don't forget that you need to compare the TA after you've brought the pH back down. 50 ppm Borates will increase TA by 5 ppm at a pH of 7.5, but at a pH of 8.7, the borates, carbonates and cyanuric acid have the TA be 140 ppm. One needs to bring down the pH first before worrying about the TA since they move together. It does sound like the Proteam Supreme Plus product may have not been properly balanced for pH (i.e. it wasn't mostly boric acid as it is supposed to be).
 
It may, but we really have no way of knowing what exactly is in the product anymore. If it's now mostly sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, then you'd need to add 18% more, so it's not a huge deal (it's 20 Mule Team Borax where one needs 54% more by weight compared to boric acid). So I wouldn't worry about it. You're probably close enough.
 

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