Newbie looking for experienced feedback.

[nfusion770]

Several week reader, first time poster.

We live in MN

We are planning a 33' Radiant AGP with a deck surrounding about 1/2 of it. The pool is (52" deep) and we are burying it about 15" to 17" in the ground so it will be level with the house and deck. We are buying it from an online dealer and hiring the excavation/ ground prep and installing the pool and deck ourselves. I plan to put an equipment pad about 30- 35 feet from the pool by the air conditioner and other utility mess.

According to the retailer and what I have read, a sand filter/ pump is the low maintenance way to go. They sell sta rite which appears to be reputable brand. He told me that if we are pumping 30 to 35 feet we may want to upgrade from a 1.5hp pump to a 2hp (apparently not that much more expensive but I have heard you don't want too big of a pump).

We are planning and running the pool basically late May through mid Sept and the pool is situated in almost pure sunlight for 6-8 hours a day. Nevertheless, we are looking at installing a heat pump because we simply want the pool to be ready when we want to use it. We considered solar but aesthetics are worth $100/ mo for us. We will also religiously use the solar cover.

Equipment
-Radiant Metric 33' 52" deep
-sta rite filter/ pump
-Jandy Aquapure EI SWG

Questions:
Should I get an ionizer?
Does the 2 hp pump seem necessary?

What heat pump should we consider? Apparently it must be able to handle off season frost. We will install ourselves (Brother in Law is a master electrician and Brother is an amateur plumber).

I calculated the necessary BTU's to heat a pool this size in this area and, based on averages I will need
113000 in June
66000 in July and Aug
and about 150,000-170,000 in May and September
The averages are clearly skewed because I will shut the pool down at the extreme ends of the season so I would like to hear what real pool owners have to say about averaging this. I'd rather not spend $5000 on a heat pump, but will if I have to.

The other thing I considered was downsizing to a 30' pool so save a little money all around, but that seems like the least appealing option with the size of our family.

Is there anything else I have failed to consider? I have skimmed pool school but plan to get more into that when I actually have an application (I am a better hands on learner with that kind of stuff). I also plan to get one of the good testing kits in the next week or so.

Any comments/ advice on any part of this are greatly appreciated.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Don't get the Ionizer. Stay with the swcg.
A 1 hp pump is big enough but I know how they like to sell the packages. Go with a 2-speed if you can get it.

I can't help you with the heat pump.

 

[nfusion770]

Thank you

I am not buying their package, we are getting the integrated steps from radiant. He said their base package is a 1.5 hp pump. Is even that too much? If so I might as well just buy something else. What do you suggest and do you agree that sand is the best filtration if I am looking for low maintenance?

 

[Bama Rambler]

The 1.5 hp will be fine but a 1 hp 2-speed would be better. Or even a 2-speed in the 1-1/2 hp would be better.

Either a large sand or cartridge filter would be fine.

 

[linen]

Welcome to tfp, nfusion770
Us Minnesotans are taking over

We are planning and running the pool basically late May through mid Sept and the pool is situated in almost pure sunlight for 6-8 hours a day. Nevertheless, we are looking at installing a heat pump because we simply want the pool to be ready when we want to use it. We considered solar but aesthetics are worth $100/ mo for us. We will also religiously use the solar cover.

If you are trying to extend the season then a natural gas heater is a better choice. If you "want the pool to be ready when we want to use it" you are also better off with a gas heater, since they can heat fast. Heat pumps generally are not great in our climate since lower ambient temperatures (think cool night time that drops the pool temp) make them very inefficient. I know you don't like solar, but IMO that would be a better choice for what you describe, unless the cost of the gas to a gas heater doesn't scare you off. There is a reason there are not many heat pumps installed around here.

Should I get an ionizer?

I vote NO as well.

 

[nfusion770]

Thanks for the feedback BR. I will be sure to get a 2 speed no matter what. From what I have read I basically just want the biggest sand filter I can get, right? I might also consider a cartridge- I just want as low maintenance as possible.

Linen- thanks. We in MN only have so much summer to enjoy so we have to make the most of it. Actually, in 2011/ 2012 we have had very little to complain about.

In short, our primary goal is to do the best we can to keep the water at swim temp at all times during the season (using a solar cover, of course). The pool is in the south west corner of an L shaped house with virtually no shading between 10am and 7pm. it is probably 10- 15 degrees warmer in that corner than anywhere in the yard (or in the entire state, perhaps ). Everything I have read has led me to believe solar and heat pumps are good with general warmth while gas is a better fit for people who use it sporadically. We want it to be ready to go all the time. $100 a month in heating is fine- $500 is not. We looked at solar and while it looks simple enough, it looks ugly and I have no interest in taking it down/ putting it up every year.

With all that in mind what are your thoughts?

 

[linen]

In short, our primary goal is to do the best we can to keep the water at swim temp at all times during the season (using a solar cover, of course). The pool is in the south west corner of an L shaped house with virtually no shading between 10am and 7pm. it is probably 10- 15 degrees warmer in that corner than anywhere in the yard (or in the entire state, perhaps ). Everything I have read has led me to believe solar and heat pumps are good with general warmth while gas is a better fit for people who use it sporadically. We want it to be ready to go all the time. $100 a month in heating is fine- $500 is not. We looked at solar and while it looks simple enough, it looks ugly and I have no interest in taking it down/ putting it up every year.

I am not an expert on heat pumps and have yet to see one on a pool I have used/helped with around here. Hopefully others will chime in here

I misread your previous statement on the "pool ready when you want to use it"...so now I understand "pool ready at all times (with no warning) for warm water swimming throughout a short, non-extended swimming season". A heat pump would meet that last quote if the nights did not get too cold (or days for that matter). I am not sure it would save over a gas heater and a couple hours warning in our climate, and I do not think it would work on those string of days in the summer when our temp dips.

Do you have a feel for what water temp you want to maintain?

 

[nfusion770]

In short, our primary goal is to do the best we can to keep the water at swim temp at all times during the season (using a solar cover, of course). The pool is in the south west corner of an L shaped house with virtually no shading between 10am and 7pm. it is probably 10- 15 degrees warmer in that corner than anywhere in the yard (or in the entire state, perhaps ). Everything I have read has led me to believe solar and heat pumps are good with general warmth while gas is a better fit for people who use it sporadically. We want it to be ready to go all the time. $100 a month in heating is fine- $500 is not. We looked at solar and while it looks simple enough, it looks ugly and I have no interest in taking it down/ putting it up every year.

I am not an expert on heat pumps and have yet to see one on a pool I have used/helped with around here. Hopefully others will chime in here

I misread your precious statement on the "pool ready when you want to use it"...so now I understand "pool ready at all times (with no warning) for warm water swimming throughout a short, non-extended swimming season". A heat pump would meet that last quote if the nights did not get too cold (or days for that matter). I am not sure it would save over a gas heater and a couple hours warning in our climate, and I do not think it would work on those string of days in the summer when our temp dips.

Do you have a feel for what water temp you want to maintain?

Not really. I am using 80 as a benchmark. I grew up on a lake- we just jumped in and acclimated. My 6 year old is really skinny and gets cold very easily. I assume we try to keep it where he is happiest. This is what is so hard about this- going in blind. The pool store we visited last year when we started planning this said with the Radiant Metric (and insulated walls) we should just put it in unheated, keep the solar cover on and see how it goes. That was the plan until I started reading here and considering the reality of trying to keep a stable temp on a 30,000 gallon body of water.

We also have gas readily available. I am just scared of installing a gas heater and realizing it costs $500 a month to make the pool worth swimming in.

 

[nfusion770]

Looking at http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13180 to get a general idea it seems gas might be competitive with a heat pump depending on the up front cost of the unit. I guess I could also go with gas, see how it goes and bite the bullet on some solar supplementation next year if it is too pricey.

 

[esdd]

I am a service tech for a large mechanical contractor, the boiler is actually the way to go. If you do the calculations you will find the cost per btu is the cheapest with nat. Gas, then heat pump, then propane, and the most expensive is straight electric (ie elements similar to elect.water heater). 1ton rating in a heat pump is 12000btu, 10 tons of heat pump is roughly equivalent to a 120000 btu boiler. Natural gas averages 1100 btu/cubic foot, propane is 2,500 btu/cubic foot gaseous or 91,500 btu/ gallon of lquid. 1 btu is the amount of energy required to increase the temp of 1 pound of water 1 degree, your pool should hold 26000 gallons of water, 1 gallon of water weighs 8.6 pounds, so 8.6 x 26000 = 223600 btu required to gain 1 degree per hour not accounting for losses. Here is a link to the engineering toolbox page on sizing heat for a pool. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/swimm ... d_878.html the formulas are for inground pools but should get you close enough to make a decision about heat pump vs. boiler.

 

[esdd]

As to your piping question the distances aren't that great it is the added elbows that will kill you. 30 ft from the pool vs. next to the pool is small just keep the elbows to a minimum. 4ft of corrugated hose is the equivilent of about 120ft of 1.5" pipe, so the gains from the elimination of of the hoses far more than offset the losses of smothe bore piping. Just remember valve are your friend, they cost quite a bit up front but are worth their weight in gold when you don't have one installed.

 

[nfusion770]

It is pretty clear you guys know a little bit about this stuff. Thanks for all the great info- I am very glad I asked.

So far I have learned to- get a gas heater and see how it goes, plumb as straight as possible, stick with the SWG, get a 1 to 1.5 hp 2 speed pump on the biggest sand or cartridge system I can find and to skip the ionizer. I also learned I need to research where I want to put valves.

esdd- If I am using a solar cover and opening the pool to bake in natural sunlight on the hot days, would it be more efficient to set the temp to maintain the heat from June 1 to Sept 15 or to shut it down at night and start up when we want to swim It seems this might be the same thing as every degree of heat lost will eventually need to be replaced anyway, but maybe I am wrong. Are there any that come with smart thermostats like I have in house?

Any advice on what gas heater to buy? I looked and there are about 50 of them from reputable companies. i assume bigger is better since it will heat quicker. I have a budget of about 2 grand (far cheaper than the heat pump I thought I was going to have to buy). It will have to be able to survive in MN. I assume regardless of brand my plumbing and heating guy will be happy to hook it up for me right?

Gas would be easy as the manifold is about 15 feet from my future equipment pad.

I also wouldn't mind a recommendation on which filter to buy (with a 2 speed pump) and if sand is really less of a hassle than cartridge.

Thanks for everyone's help

 

[mcoonan]

nfusion,
As far as the filter and "low maintenance" cartridge has to be the lowest. Once a month (if you are anal like me) or longer, you take the cartridge out put in your spare, spray down the removed cartridge to get rid of the gunk, soak over night and spray again. I take my time and have an adult beverage while spraying the cart down so it takes me a 1/2 hour for the 1st spray and 1/4 the 2nd (my filter is about 24" tall). So I spend an hour a month on maintaining the filter. I get a finer filtration than a sand filter and less maintenance than a sand or DE. When winter comes, I drain the filter/pump, clean the carts and the filter/pump goes up on the overhead shelves in my garage.

 

[linen]

You will find many varied opinions on filters. So to be contrary our fellow Minnesotan, mcoonan ...I give you mine.

During opening my sand filter has been backwashed once so far and will get one more. Takes 3 minutes each time (including the rinse step), does require some time (not my time and only about 100 gallons of water) with the hose over the side filling it back up. I then expect, if it is like last year to a month and feel guilty like I need to backwash, but I don't, and I usually go two months before my next backwash (but let's say a month). Then in the fall, because of stuff falling I might have to backwash 2 times close to closing. Also, since I have the sand filter, if I have some mess I have to vacuum I can catch it in the filter, and then it's just another short 3 min backwash cycle. You can do that easily with a cart.

Total time normal maintenance spent "cleaning" filter for a normal season= 18 minutes...for the whole season!

In addition, if you do have to clean up a algae outbreak, it's 3 minutes per backflush cycle and it can be difficult (constant cleaning) if you have a cart (or DE) filter for that matter. Of course that could be alleviated by not letting growth occur in the first place.

Winterizing is: crack valve to winterized position, unscrew drain plug...done.

Water clarity is excellent (day and night) as all of us BBBers always get great compliments from other pool owners who see our pool water

 

[nfusion770]

So I read Mcoonan and think- alright cart is the way to go. Then I read linen and think- yep sand is exactly how I thought it would be. .

I have had filters for in house water treatment and I always neglected to change the filter. Now we have a whole house filter that backwashes itself and I love it. I think sand is probably the best route for us.

I am having trouble locating a dual speed pump sand filters. None of the sand filters list dual speed as a feature, what the heck?

Hopefully esdd or another heat expert can chime in- looking at the Raypack P-R406A-EN-X, and the Jandy LRZ400ENN. Both are 400,000 BTU.

Criteria
400,000 BTU
cupro nickel (as apparently thats what is needed for SWG)
Natural Gas
Electronic ignition

Maybe just go all Jandy so I can use their control system if I want? Plus its cheaper. I can't find any info on its efficiency, however.

 

[linen]

So I read Mcoonan and think- alright cart is the way to go. Then I read linen and think- yep sand is exactly how I thought it would be. .

Of course im right :tongue:
In reality, both are appropriate (and DE too) and there is no right answer that applies to everyone and every pool/situation. In my example, water is cheap (I am on a well) so adding a little makeup water is not even a thought. In places subject to water restrictions, it makes a lot of difference. If you have nowhere to backwash, it makes a lot of difference. If you fill water is high in metals, it might make a difference (I have high iron, but for some reason am able to filter it out using the sand filter...but this is not everyone's experience). If you must have no tiny floaties visible when you are swimming underwater in a well lit pool, it might make a difference.

I am having trouble locating a dual speed pump sand filters. None of the sand filters list dual speed as a feature, what the heck?

It has nothing to do with the sand filters themselves, but the kits that manufacturers put together. They tend to pair undersized filters with single speed oversized pumps in their packages. You may have to buy the filter separate from the pump. It may cost a little more, but then you get to chose the best combination and not be limited to what manus want to sell together.

 

[nfusion770]

Thanks again Linen. We have well water and high iron too. Water is plentiful but I wonder if letting small particles pass through would have any deleterious effects on other parts of the system. Are we at risk of unnecessarily taxing the the other equipment in the chain or having orange walls if we don't use the most thorough filter we can? I also like that the sand filter forces me to exchange the pool water but that also means I will have to heat that water up. I am leaning sand but still on the fence- ugh. I am probably stressing over this more than it is worth.


Anyway, here is my tentative list of equipment- Please critique away.

Radiant Metric 33' AG pool
1.5 HP Pentair Optiflow 2 speed pump (just in case I want to supplement solar in the future)
At least an SD60 Pentair sand filter (maybe a Pentair cartridge)
Jandy LRZ400ENN gas heater
Jandy Aquapure EI SWG
2" PVC Plumbing with as few bends as possible.

 

[linen]

We have well water and high iron too.

None of the three filter technologies will fix the iron in the water. You may get lucky like me and are able to filter it out after chlorination, but you may have to use a sequestrant in the water (I would plan on this). Another option would be to get water trucked in.

Water is plentiful but I wonder if letting small particles pass through would have any deleterious effects on other parts of the system. Are we at risk of unnecessarily taxing the the other equipment in the chain or having orange walls if we don't use the most thorough filter we can?

No, I was being a little facetious about the particles (sorry about that) underwater at night . Non of the three filter types will leave particles that will cause any problems to the equipment. All three filter types are fine.

I also like that the sand filter forces me to exchange the pool water but that also means I will have to heat that water up.

I have to backflush less than 1 time per month and it uses less than 100 gallons out of 11000 gallons (my pool). It has no measurable effect on my temperature and would have much less on yours.

Your pool is quite large for an above ground so the filtering and pump requirements are a bit more difficult to select and therefore the following discussion is a little bit involved.

Here are some thoughts (if I was buying for my pool):

It is good you are planning on 2" piping. Next step is to pick a filter for you pool size:

At least an SD60 Pentair sand filter (maybe a Pentair cartridge)

You will want a bigger sand filter (if you chose sand) than that one which is 2.64 sq. ft filter. The ANSI recommendation is ~4.6 sq. ft filter for your ~25000 gallon pool. For back-washing you want at least 15 gpm/sq. ft., so for a 4.6 sq. ft. filter that would be a backwash flow rate of 69 gpm. For this size of filter Hayward has a top mount valve model S310T2 (4.9 sq.ft) and Pentair has top mount valve filter TA100D (4.9 sq. ft.).

1.5 HP Pentair Optiflow 2 speed pump (just in case I want to supplement solar in the future)

I think that is a good choice. 2 speed is good, and assuming you get about 67 gpm on that pump with your plumbing (2 inch is good), it would turn your pool over in about 6 hours. To back flush a 4.9 sq. ft. filter, ideally you would want a about 15 gpm/sq. ft. or 73.5 gpm. This pump is close and if you consider 13 gpm minimum for backflushing, it would require about 64 gpm. To gain anymore margin you would most likely have to go up to a inground pump (which you could do) since Hayward Matrix AGP pumps are about the same curve as the Pentair AGPs.

Another possibility is to go down in size on the filter. The SD80 has 3.5 sq. ft. filter area. This would be below the ANSI requirements (they are for public pools), but it would be close and still have 1 full water change in less than 8 hours. If you go smaller (like an SD70), then you might consider dropping down to the 1 hp optiflow or matrix 2-speed pump.

If you went with a cartridge filter, then your pump choice would be fine and you would want a cart filter that was at least 370 sq. ft (the tfp recommendation for a 25000 gallon pool to reduce number of cleanings per season).

Almost all of the above information comes from: http://www.troublefreepool.com/hydraulics-101-have-you-lost-your-head-t915.html

A tfp special contributor, Mas985, has compiled all of that information. I will ask him to take a look at this thread.

 

[mas985]

Given the size of the pool, the long pipe runs, the solar requirement and the large filter, this setup seems to be more like a IG pool than an AG pool so I would be more inclined to treat it that way. The Optiflo might work but I am not sure I would want to take that chance.

A couple of questions:

What was the model # Sta-Rite that the pool builder was recommending? This could be an IG pump.

Please describe the plumbing design: (e.g. Pipe size, number of skimmers, number of returns)

Will the equipment be installed above/below water level and if so by how much?

 

[nfusion770]

Almost all of the above information comes from: http://www.troublefreepool.com/hydraulics-101-have-you-lost-your-head-t915.html

A tfp special contributor, Mas985, has compiled all of that information. I will ask him to take a look at this thread.

Linen-Thanks for all that information. I thought I had it mostly figured out from reading and online calculators- guess not. I will take a look at that thread and take a closer look at your post when I get time. I just started paying attention to flow rates.

Given the size of the pool, the long pipe runs, the solar requirement and the large filter, this setup seems to be more like a IG pool than an AG pool so I would be more inclined to treat it that way. The Optiflo might work but I am not sure I would want to take that chance.

A couple of questions:

What was the model # Sta-Rite that the pool builder was recommending? This could be an IG pump.

Please describe the plumbing design: (e.g. Pipe size, number of skimmers, number of returns)

Will the equipment be installed above/below water level and if so by how much?

I am not sure what model. It was from the standard package on their website I think. I figured they would tell me what I needed. I didn't know enough at the time to ask how big the sand filter was.

I believe the Radiants have one skimmer and one return.

The top of the pool will be 36 inches off the ground (sunk into the ground 15 inches or so). The equipment will be on a concrete pad 1 or 2 inches off the ground. So if the top of the water is say 5 inches below the top rail it will be about 29" to 30" higher than the base of the equipment. The floor of the pool will be about 17 inches below the base of the equipment.

Below is a quick sketch I drew. The whole pool and deck area will be at 36" above the ground

I can pretty much slide the equipment pad anywhere along that side that I need to.

I am also curious if I it is a good idea to have the gas heater right there as well. The top of the heater will basically be at floor level.