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Thread: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

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    New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Hello,

    I've been lurking here for some time and finally took the advice to order my own test kit and take care of my own pool.

    The funny thing is that there is a CC reading of 55, which repeated twice. Most folks post a reading of 0.5 or so. I'm not sure what this means, if it's good or bad, or what to do about it, if anything.

    pH: 6.8
    FC: 3.5
    CC: 55
    TA: 130
    CH: 400
    CYA: 55

    The instructions included with the kit were followed diligently both times. I did indeed put 110 drops of R-0871 in the second part of the test.

    Other notes, recently did an AA treatment and have been adding bleach every day or so, two gallons at a time, to get the FC to hold. It just started holding over the weekend.

    The pool water is crystal clear.

    The pool was re plastered about 5 years ago.

    Just added some MA to bring the pH down from 7.5 and then some HEDP sequesterant (HTH) because the return jets showed stains returning.

    Iron staining is a constant battle in my pool due to rusty screws in the cage overhead.

    Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
    -Paul
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Hi, Paul.

    Welcome to the forum. Your description of your test results sounds very valid so that will easily be a new record on this forum, I think.

    1. Raise your pH up to 7.2 .....6.8 is too low.

    2. Once you are finished with 1) above, bring your FC up to 24ppm and hold it there for the next 24 hours and then reperform the FC/CC's test and post the results. I would hope to see some fairly dramatic reduction of your CC's.

    Your pool is not covered, is it? Uncover it if it is.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    It takes something really dramatic to create a CC level of 55. That isn't a normal result of an AA treatment.

    I'm wondering of perhaps you used too much pool water in the sample tube when doing the test, or if the sample tube could possibly have been contaminated?

    One good double check would be to find/get out the OTO chlorine tester and test with that. With CC that high you should see a dramatic color change in the sample over the first one or two minutes ending up at a red/brown color if that test result is correct.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Levels that high could come from a lot of ammonia being added. The two most common sources of ammonia are:

    1) Ammonium sulfate, or Aqua ammonia from a "Yellow Out" type product, or
    2) Bacterial conversion of cyanuric acid to ammonia.

    If you opened to 0 CYA, especially if you closed with CYA, then bacterial conversion could be the answer.

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Okay, a few days and 8 gallons of 6% bleach later I get....

    pH: 7
    FC: 3
    CC: >30 (dumped the flask at 60 drops, did not repeat)
    TA: 130
    CYA: 40 (still learning when to stop, earlier reading likely false)

    As an aside, I did an OTO test (kit I've had for a year or so) and it read
    FC: 4 After a few minutes, it turned yellow-orange, more yellow than orange though.
    pH: 7.2

    As far as shocking...
    Did 3 gallons of bleach Tuesday morning, 2 Tuesday night, 2 Wednesday morning and night, 1 Friday morning

    Doubt the FC ever got to 24. Was travelling and having wife help, so no interim measurements.

    Off to store to get even more bleach and take interim measurements over the weekend. Hopefully 10gallons will be enough. Also gonna crank up the SWG, had it set at 40% over this interval, running for 8 hours every day.

    -Paul
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    The OTO test confirms that there is a significant CC level. Yellow-orange suggests a level closer to 15 than to 30, but with the OTO test guessing high levels from the color is problematic at best.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Pool water has turned hazy, a white, chalky type of haze. Added 1 cup of DE to sand filter to help capture fines. Added some clarifier to chase the fines with as well.

    Here's the transient tests I have from the past 12 hours or so...

    All bleach additions are just after the measurement was made. The SWG is on Super Chlorinate.

    Also, I'm stopping the CC measurement around 10 to conserve reagents.

    Any thoughts on how much longer I should expect to go? This kind of shocking has never been done since the pool was replastered 5 years ago, no has there been a drain and refill.

    5/11/12
    03:30pm - FC: 3, CC: >30 (same as above) (Added 6gal 6% bleach)
    04:30pm - FC: 30 (no additions)
    05:30pm - FC: 22 (add 3gal 6% bleach)
    10:00pm - FC: 14 (add 3gal 6% bleach)
    11:00pm - FC: 20 (add 3gal 6% bleach)

    5/12/12
    06:00am - FC: 20 CC: >20 (add 3gal 6% bleach)
    08:00am - FC: 34 CC: >10 (no additions)
    09:00am - FC: 28 CC: >10 (add 3gal 6% bleach)
    10:00am - FC: 35 CC: N/A (no additions)
    11:00am - FC: 39 CC: N/A (nothing added, SWG turned off)
    12:00pm - FC: 34 CC: N/A (nothing added, SWG off)
    01:00pm - FC: 29 CC: N/A (nothing added, SWG off)
    03:00pm - FC: 22 CC: N/A (add 3gal 6% bleach, SWG off, cloudiness clearing, 2 backflushes since noon)
    04:00pm - FC: 32 CC: > 0 (nothing added, SWG off, water looking clear)
    05:00pm - FC: 34 CC: > 0 (nothing added, SWG off, water clear, backflush + 2 cups DE)
    06:00pm - FC: 35 CC: > 0 (nothing added, SWG off, water clear, no pressure rise on filter)
    11:00pm - FC: 28 CC: > 0 (nothing added, SWG off, water cloudy in front of light, backwash filter + 1 cup DE)

    5/13/12
    06:00am - FC: 28 CC: > 0 (nothing added, SWG set to 50% for 8 hrs - turning on at 9am, water hazy in front of light, 1 cup DE)
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Wow! It is out of my pay grade to speculate on what that is in your pool......I can't remember seeing any descriptions/test results quite like that.

    There is some very good news, however, in that the chlorine seems to be consuming whatever it is. I would suggest that you keep pouring the chlorine in the pool until you do not get any significant reduction..

    I would also suggest you don't dose the chlorine in excess of 24ppm based on your CYA result.

    I guess the white chalk is some residue of whatever it is that you are eliminating with the use of your chlorine but I simply don't know.

    It appears you are doing the right thing and, soon, I think, your CC's will get down to normal.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    The culprit could be some of these things....

    This is citric acid, ascorbic was not available when I wanted to reduce the iron stains. Used about 10lbs.
    http://store.pinchapenny.com/product/Ch ... e-00965004

    20lbs of this went into the pool
    http://store.pinchapenny.com/product/Ch ... s-00000447

    Used 4 quarts or so of this. The store sequesterant test kept showing "low"
    http://store.pinchapenny.com/product/Ch ... l-00910232

    As far as what went wrong and why so much. The chlorine wasn't taken to zero before starting anything, so the first half of the acids likely did little but lower the pH. I didn't really see the stains lift until the last 10lbs of Stop Stains was scattered directly on the stains without the filter running.

    An earlier vitamin c test confirmed the stains as iron.

    Just a victim of my own ignorance running to the pool store to buy something which would "fix" my pool instead of going through the process with measurements. To be honest, I had an attitude of "I don't want to learn this, I'll just pay somebody". Guess what, now I'm learning it because I was never completely happy with the paid for results.

    Anyone know where I can rent a Westfalia SC-20 for the weekend?

    11:00pm
    FC: 39 CC: N/A (nothing added, SWG turned off)
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Both citric acid and Stop Stains will consume large amounts of chlorine, but they don't normally produce high CC readings.

    I doubt that the Ultra Mineral Control is involved in the chlorine consumption.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Could the Ultra have contributed to the high CC? I didn't wait between adding the ultra and chlorine about a month ago. (not doing that now, just straight bleach)

    Also, I've been editing the above transient chlorine reading post. Seems like I'm loosing 5ppm/hr in sunlight. Is this normal solar decay or is it oxidizing organics?

    Another question, is it ok to add more sequesterant while shocking? Looks like the iron is precipitating onto my jets and drain. I just added a quart of HTH metal control last week.

    Thanks for all the help!
    -Paul
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Hi everyone,

    Thanks again for all of the advice. I'm a bit confused, or may impatient, at this point.

    I'm past the 24hour mark on shocking and CCs are still out of sight. The OTO test is still Yellow-Orange and I don't have enough reagents to measure out to 50 again. (more are on order)

    The chlorine seems to be holding now that the pool is shaded. (current results are a few posts up)

    Keep going with the shock? The water is looking very good and there is no odor to it even with FC>30.

    I'm also keeping up with the DE in the sand filter in case there are micron scale particles passing through the sand. (have plenty of DE)

    Thank you!
    -Paul
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Losing a fair bit of chlorine to sunlight is normal. However, it is impossible to say if that should 5 ppm an hour in particular. How much chlorine you lose overnight is the important thing to measure.

    Yes, you can add more sequestrant.

    The key thing is to raise FC to shock level this evening, get a good measurement of FC this evening, and then get another good measurement of FC tomorrow as early as possible in the morning.

    By the by, there isn't any need to raise FC above about 24.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Thanks Jason,

    I was holding the CL above 24, being nervous that if it drops below that something will go wrong.

    Will do the overnight measure if possible. Just about out of R-0871. Going to be flying blind soon.

    I have 8 1.42gal jugs of 6% bleach left. Should I switch to 1 jug every 8 hours or something?

    Will add the sequesterant. It would be horrible to have it looking this good and the iron staining come back.

    Perhaps I should just measure in the morning and see if it's still in the 30s?
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    By the by, there isn't any need to raise FC above about 24.
    Sorry to stick my nose in here. So if my shock level is 20, then going over that to something like 28 or 30 only buys me a little more time before adding more and no more sanitizing ability?
    23k Vinyl, Sand Filter tr60, 1hp Whisperflo pump,Coverstar autocover
    Polaris 280,K2006 kit,direct sunlight

  16. Back To Top    #16
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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Quote Originally Posted by relling2245
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Sorry to stick my nose in here. So if my shock level is 20, then going over that to something like 28 or 30 only buys me a little more time before adding more and no more sanitizing ability?
    More chlorine kills algae faster. However, Atredeis is running out of testing reagent. As long as you/he gets to shock level you are shocking and the lower levels save on reagent usage.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    As long as you/he gets to shock level you are shocking and the lower levels saves on reagent usage.
    Ah, i see. Thank you very much. I too ran into the lack of reagent and ended up ordering the 16oz bottle, refilling the .75 from it.
    23k Vinyl, Sand Filter tr60, 1hp Whisperflo pump,Coverstar autocover
    Polaris 280,K2006 kit,direct sunlight

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    OK, measured FC: 28 at 11:00pm, adding nothing but a little DE to the filter before bed. Hopefully have enough R-0871 for the morning FC test, then I'm out until more arrives next week.
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    As described in this paper, chlorine oxidizes citric acid to produce significant amounts of chloroform (a trihalomethane, THM), especially at lower pH, so it is better to use ascorbic acid instead even though it is more expensive. If you are only using the citric acid for a single treatment and keep your water exposed to air, then that's probably OK, but I would not use citric acid for repeated multiple treatments.

    post310434.html
    Perhaps there is chloroform from the oxidation of citric acid measuring as CC.

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Re: New TF-100 kit and high (55) CC reading

    Good morning,

    Did the OCLT and recorded the following:

    11:00pm
    FC: 28, CC: > 0 (nothing added to pool, SWG off)

    6:00am
    FC: 28, CC: > 0 (nothing added to pool, SWG set to turn on 50% for 8 hours at 9:00am)

    Looks like, for the moment at least, everything which can be is oxidized out.

    I must be doing the CC test wrong. I added the 5 drops of R-0003 to the solution after measuring FC and it turned blood red.

    However, the OTO test still shows yellow-oragne after a few minutes.

    Water is crystal clear except for some haze visible in front of the pool light.
    OCLT < 1
    CC seems to be through the roof and shows no sign of diminishing

    (note: post #7 edited with all FC measurements)

    Complete test results:
    pH: 7.2
    FC: 28
    CC: > 0
    TA: 100
    CH: 420
    CYA: 40

    Thanks!
    -Paul
    10,000 gal plaster pool, sand filter, Hayward swim pure SWG w/T-9 (25,000g) cell, Hayward Ecostar pump, Barracuda G3, TF-100 test kit

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