What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilling?

[rock]

EDIT: Disjoint topics were merged by the admins into this single project ... so I apologize for the multiple questions in a single thread.
I hope it's not too confusing for you. It's a single project - but the questions are unrelated.

Q: What would you do to this pool once drained and before re-filling?

Due to a green pool, I decided to drain it:
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The first question was whether draining causes detrimental effects on vegetation downhill
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The second question is what to do with this (now empty) pool before filling it up?

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Will 38K of drained pool water help or hurt the vegetati

Probably not.

But you did not give it enough time to clear ... shocking can take a lot longer than 4 days.

Posted with Tapatalk ... sorry if I sound short ... hate typing on phone

 

[rock]

Bummer. I perhaps should have shocked harder and filtered longer.

Now that it's almost drained, do you have advice for what steps should I do to clean it up?
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What should I do while I have it dry (paint? scrape? mortar? measure?) & before I refill it from the garden hose?
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Q: Would you use a pressure washer to clean this?
Q: Would you paint it - is that easy?
Q: Is there a trick to getting the scum off the walls?
Q: What would you do to this pool now while it's still empty?

Thanks for any kind help - I'd like to learn how this pool works so I can fix & maintain it myself with courage from you guys in terms of trustworthy advice.

 

[rock]

Re: Will 38K of drained pool water help or hurt the vegetati

Topics merged. JasonLion

 

[jed1894]

Re: Break it to me gently: How bad is this pool; what to do

Your pool looks like a dream compared to the one I just drained. My suggestions based on experience with two non-liner pools:

1. I wouldn't paint. I have one painted and every time I clean, the paint comes up in chips. I hate my painted pool.
2. You can try pressure washing the stains on lower pressure. Open up the end so the stream is not hard.
3. I used bleach to get most of my stains gone. I was recommended acid but I didn't go there.
4. If you want to know the exact gallons, you can hook up one of those gallon measurement devices to the end of your hose when you fill it back up.

Do you have leaks? If so, it would be a good time to fix them.

From your pictures, I think you pool looks pretty good.

Good luck, jed

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: Break it to me gently: How bad is this pool; what to do

Looks like you have a LOT of calcium scale...I'd look into having somebody acid wash it, then you can just fill 'er back up. Painting would be a disaster! Did you call paramount about getting those heads out? Some of mine were pretty difficult, and a couple of them were even plastered in

 

[rock]

Re: Break it to me gently: How bad is this pool; what to do

Do you have leaks?

Good point! One of the jandy valves is leaking badly (I had turned the pump on and forgot to open 'all' the valves!).
I should price them out and consider cutting them out of the ground. I'll snap a picture to show you what I mean.

I'd look into having somebody acid wash it, then you can just fill 'er back up.

I hadn't realized that was what all the white stuff is.
Everything is speckled with sharp barnacles of white stuff (Calcium?) so the acid wash idea is a good one if that will get rid of the Calcium.
Do they use Muriatic Acid (HCL)? (I'll look to see if there is a forum DIY for acid washing a pool.)

Painting would be a disaster!

That's the second suggestion NOT to paint so I won't even consider it. Thanks for the advice.

Did you call paramount about getting those heads out? Some of mine were pretty difficult, and a couple of them were even plastered in

Yes. I called Paramount in Arizona 480.893.7607. The tech support guy (Jimmy) was on vacation but the sales rep (Wendy) told me they screw in backward from normal things. She said the pool heads go bad - so she suggested I replace them (at a few hundred each!).
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[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

This is what I will do based on the answers so far:

0. I won't paint.
1. I'll pressure wash the (now dry) walls and floor.
2. I'll look for an ACID WASH DIY on this forum & elsewhere.
3. I'll look for a JANDY VALVE REPAIR DIY on this forum & elsewhere.

1. The reason for the pressure wash is that the pool is dirty. Having some experience with pressure washing, I'll need to be vewwy vewwy careful as the power of the thing with a small-hole is utterly tremendous.
2. I tried a bit if carbonic-acid washing (i.e., household vinegar) - and it seems to have an effect - so the white crystalline stuff must be dissolving.
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3. This Jandy valve is leaking badly - but - I can't figure out how to even get to it - there are so many valves surrounding it. Any ideas?
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[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

I searched and, unfortunately, there wasn't a good pictorial DIY thread on this forum on how to perform an acid wash.
This was the best I could find:
- How to acid wash pool walls

So I guess I'll write up a quick DIY (based on googling) to help everyone, including myself; but it would be better written by someone who actually knows what they're doing . Be that as it may ... How would you improve this step-by-step DIY?

0. Wear protective clothing & equipment & go section by section.
- goggles, mask, gloves, boots, + respirator (acid fumes are heavier than air & you're standing in a big tub)
- don't acid wash a vinyl or above-ground pool (only plaster in-ground pools)
- acid actually removes a very thin layer of the plaster, which is about 1.5 inches thick to start with
- some suggest washing and brushing with trisodiumphosphate (TSP) before doing an acid wash
- don't let the TSP stay for too long
1. Set up a submersible pump in the deep end to pump out the acidified water
- neutralize water with 2 pounds of soda ash for every gallon of 14.5% HCl
2. Pour one gallon of water into a pump sprayer
- never add water to acid
3. Add one gallon of 14.5% muriatic acid (HCl) to that one gallon of water (I wonder if vinegar will work?)
- half a gallon if 29% HCl (each article has a different ratio - and some even use it full strength!)
- some suggest 8% to 10% final concentration of muriatic acid
- one gallon of 10% solution will cover about 100 sq ft
4. Some say to add dish detergent to the mix
- this DIY says dish detergent is reputed to lessen the fumes
5. From above, spray the walls with water from a garden hose
- start at the deep end and work your way to the shallow end
- one 5-foor-wide or 10-foot-wide section at a time
6. Pour the acid/water mixture down the side of the pool
- having a helper topside is recommended
7. Wait 30 seconds for the acid to do its work, and then scrub the walls with an acid brush
- some say to wait for the bubbling to stop
- all say to not allow the acid to stay for too long
- an acid brush has a wood handle with heavy bristles
8. Rinse thoroughly with water
- ensure the submersible pump is pumping the neutrilized water out of the deep end to a safe location
- make sure the water path doesn't etch a channel in the pool (keep rinsing the path)
- some suggest a scrubbing with TSP to neutralize the acid
9. You may need to repeat
- painting can follow - it will take about 6 gallons or more of expoxy paint
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Video of an acid wash

While googling for acid wash DIYs, I found this warning about hydrostatic plugs:
If you decide to drain and clean your own pool, make sure that the hydrostatic relief plugs are pulled as soon as possible
EDIT: Apparently the hydrostatic plugs are in the main drain, which is still under water - which makes it kind of hard to remove becuase the pool has to be empty in the first place.
Apparently the plugs open themselves though ... so that warning is confusing to me.

EDIT: Acid washing is only for three purposes, apparently, none of which are calcium deposits!
1. Etch the surface of new concrete
2. Remove stubborn stains
3. Prepare the surface for lamination of a new coating
So, maybe I won't acid wash after all this ...

EDIT: It turns out that I might not have calcium deposits in the first place; it may just be leached plaster. So, the key question is the TEST for calcium deposits is needed!
But, if it 'is' Calcium deposits, and if acid washing isn't to remove calcium deposits - the obvious question is HOW do we remove calcium deposits?

EDIT: Given what I now know:
a) I don't want to paint
b) I don't want to acid wash

I think all I need to do before refilling is:
A) Test 'what' the substance is that is gritty (Calcium or not)
B) If it 'is' calcium, then figure out how to remove it, otherwise ...
A) Just clean the pool sides (with a pressure washer)
B) Fix leaks (not so easily done)...

At this point, the main questions still open are:
Q1: How do you test for calcium deposits and if this 'is' calcium, how do you remove them (if it's not acid washing???)?
Q2: How would you fix a leaking Jandy valve which is almost impossible to access?


EDIT: I found out by using the USENET that the Jandy valves would either be cracked or leaking from o-rings as nothing else (apparently) can be replaced; so I'll see if I can get the top off (it's extremely tight there with all the pipes packed in together) and replace hte o-ring. Is this normal to have a dozen Jandy valves so close together that there isn't more than a quarter inch to a half inch between them?
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[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Q1: How do you test for calcium deposits and if this 'is' calcium, how do you remove them (if it's not acid washing???)?

I think I figured out that the 'white' sandy stuff is on top of the blue paint.

What I did was pressure wash the pool, and, as an experiment, I stayed in one spot. The more I stayed, the bluer the plaster got.
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This implies the white sandy stuff is on top of the plaster. If an acid wash removes that, then that's what I'll likely do.
The main thing stopping me from doing an acid wash is that most DIYs I read said that's not the purpose of an acid wash.
So, I'm confused how to remove the white sandy stuff if it's 'not' an acid wash.

Q2: How would you fix a leaking Jandy valve which is almost impossible to access?

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I took apart a Jandy valve I pulled out of a pool store dumpster - and found it's extremely simple. Six parts:
1. handle
2. lock nut
3. cover
4. cover o-ring
5. gate
6. housing
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Removing the screws in the leaking Jandy valve took about an hour due to the inaccessible location; but in the end, I think the housing is cracked.
Of course, the problem is the valve itself is about an inch above the ground, and it's in a tight spot, so this will be a bear to fix.
I wonder if epoxy will work?
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[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

You can try some epoxy; it might work.

Take some of your sandy material and drop it in a little cup with some diluted acid. If it fizzes, it's calcium scale. I'll eat my shorts if it doesn't! It looks like you're able to pressure wash off some of it, which is good. If you can get most of it off, you may not need to acid wash.

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

You can try some epoxy; it might work.

I'll try that because the valve is blocked in front by a pipe and blocked to the sides by adjacent valves and blocked from the bottom by the ground and blocked from the top by more pipes.
I couldn't even get a stubby scredriver in there to pull the cap off; I had to use an L-shaped screwdriver. All I'd want is an extra inch on each side!
So, I'll try to find some kind of strong plastic-crack repair glue.

Take some of your sandy material and drop it in a little cup with some diluted acid. If it fizzes, it's calcium scale

I'm out of HCl so I'll go to Home Depot today to get some more. Do you think it will work with vinegar (acetic acid, aka carboxylic acid)?

BTW, here's a picture of the pool deep end this morning:
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[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

It might work with vinegar, but I doubt it.

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

It might work with vinegar, but I doubt it.

I couldn't tell when I chipped some of the coating off of the light bezel ... tomorrow I'm going to get some HCl from Home Depot:
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BTW, based on the suggestion to repair the plumbing, I snapped a better picture of the cracked Jandy valve:
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The problem is that there are 20 Jandy valves (yes, I counted them) and they're all packed together tightly so this one, in particular, is very difficult to get to in order to replace it.
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Tomorrow, I'm going to see if I can pick up some plumbing parts to replumb.
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Do you think it's OK if I re-route the output from the cleaner pump to go HIGHER (like at belly button level) instead of low to the ground like it is now?

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

No problem with rerouting the pipes. Whatever's easiest! It's amazing how much stuff some plumbers will cram into a tiny area...

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

No problem with rerouting the pipes. Whatever's easiest! It's amazing how much stuff some plumbers will cram into a tiny area...

Went to Home Depot to buy plumbing to start re-routing. The Jandy valve is $90 at Leslies, yet a sturdy 2" PVC on/off water valve is only $11 at Home Depot.

What does the Jandy valve do that a standard schedule 80 PVC water ball valve doesn't do?

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

$90 is an outrageous price! Look online; you can find much better than that. Pentair and Hayward also make equivalent valves; if you check those they may be cheaper. The cheap ball valves will work, but tend to stick and crack, and the handles will break off and stab your hands, and you'll wish you'd bought a nice one Your situation is actually pretty rare; cracked pool valves are not something we see very frequently.

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

$90 is an outrageous price! Look online; you can find much better than that. Pentair and Hayward also make equivalent valves; if you check those they may be cheaper. The cheap ball valves will work, but tend to stick and crack, and the handles will break off and stab your hands, and you'll wish you'd bought a nice one Your situation is actually pretty rare; cracked pool valves are not something we see very frequently.

Thanks for the advice. I was wondering 'what' is so special about a Jandy valve anyway. I guess at something vastly less than $90 each, the answer may make less of a difference since it clearly is easier to turn than the ball valve (and might handle the pressure, whatever the pressure is at the output of the cleaner pump).

BTW, since it's so darn hard to access, I might try to fix the crack - but that's a risky proposition.

To lower my risk, I called the owner of the plast-aid main number (970)577-1000, Randy, in Colorado.
It's not a glue; it's a plastic (he says).
The material matters greatly: if it's PVC, Acrylic, or Styrene, it will work; if it's Nylon or PBS plastic, it won't stick.
One way to test is to put lacquer thinner on the plastic and if it gets sticky, it's good to go.

He gave me this procedure:
Wipe the outside of the Jandy valve clean with a paper towel
Put just the liquid on a corner of the paper towel
Wipe that liquid over a half inch on both sides of the crack
Then mix the plastic liquid and powder to a drippy consistency
Note: It must be wet to work!
Smear a thin layer over the crack half inch on both sides of crack
In time, the consistency will get frosting thick
Wait until it's no longer drippy on this bonding layer
Then smear a new layer on top to add thickness for strength

The first smear is the chemical bond; The second smear is for strength.
The two components liquid and powder, become part of the Jandy valve plastic. He says this is different than adhesives which are polar attraction.
He explained Chem Quip in San Jose distributes the stuff, and SCP in San Jose or Spa Depot in Seattle.

Q: Any idea what a Jandy valve is made up of?

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Pretty sure they are ABS plastic. Jandy should be able to tell you.

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Jandy should be able to tell you.

That was a great idea to call Jandy technical support (which is really Zodiac, who bought both Jandy & Polaris 800-822-7933) as it saved me $90 bucks (I owe you a beer!).

It was a loooong wait (>20 minutes) for someone to pick up in support but I found out from them the valve is made out of CPVC so I called Plast-Aid back who said it would work just fine to repair the crack.

More interestingly, my pool equipment was already registered with Jandy, so, I apparently get the lifetime guarantee ... so they'll send me a brand new valve (I need to call back to tell them which one to ask for).

My choices for my 2" ID schedule 40 white PVC pipe (painted black) are:
Jandy #4724 1.5 inch to 2 inch (i.e., the schedule 40 PVC pipe goes OUTSIDE the CPVC Jandy fitting)
Jandy #4716 2 inch to 2.5 inch (i.e., the schedule 40 PVC pipe goes INSIDE the CPVC Jandy fitting)

Which one would 'you' get (does it even matter)?