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Thread: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

  1. Back To Top    #1

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    Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    I am a new homeowner with a IG pool and in the process of learning to do my own testing and the BBB pool care way as I've been reading about on this forum the past few days,I want to get away from the trips and expense of the local pool stores for testing and guidance on what chemicals to continually purchase and dump in...

    With that said I'm not sure of the past background on how the pool was maintained from its previous owners ? I have come across some left over Muriatic Acid and some balance 100 (i think) chemicals in the pool house that up until now had no idea what they were for ? (Great Forum)..

    My most recent (yesterday) test results from my local pool store is below, I recently (before finding this forum) bought a 50lb bucket of 3" tabs and the Frog instant mineral pack that goes in the skimmer and planned on having a pool frog type retro system since there was already a automatic inline chlorination unit installed in the system and all that was needed was the mineral pack and some slow disolving Tabs , but now after reading a bunch on this forum I realize a properly balanced pool don't really need the mineral pac to maintain low levels of FC and lower the usage of chlorine to achieve less eye irritation and all the woes associated with the assumed chlorine maintained pool as the pool store folks try to sell you on...

    I was told at the pool store after the last tests that my CYA level was so high due to high amounts of stabilizers and/or the combination of CYA producing tabs and over stabilizing ?? I wish they would have tested the CYA levels last week on my 1st sample but they were out of reagent at the time...

    So far, my pool is crystal clear (was when I opened it last week)After the 1st samples were tested last week, I added 3 lbs of super shock , Alk increase, and a bottle of algeside 60 along with a bottle of copper remover(?? cant remember the name)I've be running the filter 24-7 since opening, vacuumed a few times and the latest test results (yesterday) are as follows.

    FC-5.57ppm
    TC-5.7ppm
    CC-.13ppm
    TA (input) 137
    TA (adjusted) 89 Not sure what the pool stores sample method is as far as input & adjusted ??
    PH- 7.5
    CH-210
    CYA- 144 (ouch..)
    Copper- .3 They had me add ANOTHER $17 bottle of remover
    Iron - 0
    TDS- 600
    Saturated Index - 0

    I now realize I have to drain a substantial amount of water 1st and refill to deal with the high level of CYA, (I have a well, with good test #'s from what they told me ??) I will get my well tested again and post em soon..Anything in particular I should test for ?

    As far as the $100 bucket of tablets and $80 instant frog mineral pac i just purchased , after reading everything here it sure seems I shouldn't even use either of them and start from scratch with the 3 B's now rather then later ? And order a good test kit and get my ducks lined up for testing and tracking progress?

    My wife and I had a IG pool at our previous house but were using Baquacil with that pool and spending a boat load to have a non chlorinated pool to eliminate the eye irritation, fading ,smell and all other hyped up reasons that are associated with the use of chlorine (when NOT balanced correct) that we've experienced in the past.. But now after learning alot from this forum I want to
    have a properly balanced sparkling clear chlorine pool and save time /$$ and get the BBB program down pat before we update the faded worn down beaten up liner maybe next season.

    Any direction pointing for my situation would be MUCH appreciated and look forward to a great learning experience with the forum...

    Thanks,
    Steve
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

  2. Back To Top    #2

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Hi roadking00 and welcome to TFP!

    Yes, you have found the right place here at TFP.com
    The TF-100 testing kit is the Snap-On tool of the trade here. A must have!
    My TF-100 with the XL option is the best tool in my toolbox and will fix and prevent any water problems with my pool water.
    Quit messing around with the pool store and order the TF-100 test kit. (just got a speed stir-really nice tool also)
    Once you have the kit, test pool water, then post the results here in this post and we will give you direction on how to follow the methods taught here.
    I was in the same place last year with my pool and found TFP just over a year ago. Ordered my test kit, posted results here and followed the advice given and while getting a free education at the same time! My pool did exactly what it was told to do and had a perfect pool all of last season! Cheap too!

    Chuck
    Swim n Play 21' round, expandable 72" liner, 6FT deep center, buried 14", 12,750 Gallons
    Waterway 1HP-2 speed with 22" Sand filter
    TF-100 test kit
    Thanks to TFP my pool is perfect all the time :party:
    I now suffer from Sparklypoolitis! :whoot:
    I am a Platinum contributor because I want everyone who comes here to Trouble Free Pool to have the same success that I enjoy with my pool and family.

  3. Back To Top    #3
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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Welcome to TFP! It sounds like you have been doing your homework

    Ordering a top quality test kit and replacing a lot of water are the right things to do to start. You want to get CYA down to the 50 to 70 range. One thing to keep in mind is that measurements of CYA levels over 100 are often wildly inaccurate. So you may need to replace more water than it at first appears.

    Don't worry about adjusted TA. Around here we always use the TA result directly from the test kit.

    Copper doesn't get removed from the water unless you remove water. The lowering CYA process should also lower your copper level (which is a good thing to do). There are two kinds of products relating to metals. One kind removes metal stains from the surface of the pool and puts the metals back in solution. The other kind holds metals in solution and prevents them from depositing as stains again. Neither one removes the metals from the water. My guess is that after your water replacement your copper level will be low enough that you don't need to worry about it.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Welcome aboard, don't worry about the trichlor tablets you bought, they do keep and you can use them over time to maintain your CYA level once you get it where you want it due to dilution from rain, splashout and when going on vacation. Another great thing to remember about the BBB method is you can adopt however much of it as you want to, it is not all or nothing, for example when I decided to go the BBB method I kept using pool store bought dry acid to manage pH instead of using Muriatic acid, because my then teenage son was handling some of the daily maintenance, and I did not want him having to handle the potentially more dangerous stuff.

    Ike

    p.s. like others have said, get a good test kit, while there are a few good pool stores out there, as a general rule their numbers are not to be trusted, proof of this can be seen when results vary wildly from sample to sample on things like CYA or Calcium Hardness which can only be reduced by dilution or Reverse Osmosis treatment..

    One more thing, post your location in your profile, it will help us in the future helping you to know the region you live in when it comes to such things as rainfall amounts, water hardness, sunlight exposure, etc.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Thanks for all your support and feedback...will be returning the mineral pac for my 80 bucks back to invest in some Borax/Baking Soda

    Couple quick questions....

    1. Since my pool actually looks pretty good should I bleed/feed just a foot of water level right now just till I get my test kit and verify the actual CYA levels ?

    2. Is 12.5% of Sodium Hypochlorite (pretty much bleach I guess) ok to use? and when all is balance what is the typical daily/weekly usage ?

    3. Do I need to remove the 3" tabs from the chlorinator I just filled yesterday or just turn the dial all the way off for now is fine ??

    Just paid for my TF-100 XL kit and what the heck... the magnetic swirler thing a ma jig too hopefully be here by Saturday....

    Oh yeah...I see there is an Iphone App available for the pool calculator, is there one coming soon for the elite "Droid" users out there ?

    Thanks again...
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    1) It is nice to get confirmation before you spend a lot of time/money on replacing water.
    2) Sure, fine.
    3) Turning the dial to off is fine.

    There is no sign of the Pool Calculator coming out for Android. You might want to try the app described in this post.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Thanks Jason,

    I track and do everything with my phone ,so hopefully this available app for me will work great in conjunction with the pool calc on my laptop....makes things so much easier electronically rather then the pencil/paper way

    I remember seeing a post that touched on saving the pool app to your PC and using it without being on the net ...any help ?
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    I am in the process of re-filling about a foot or so of the pool from my Well, I will be testing my sourse water (well) when my test kit arrives hopefully soon.Have a couple questions.

    1. Is there any specific tests and min/max parameters I should test for and be aware of what will need to be addressed from my well ?

    2. I will be putting a whole house pure water filter on my well water to my home (mainly sediment/rust ,5 micron type filter) are there any pros/cons i need to also be aware of when I do this ?
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Quote Originally Posted by roadking00
    I am in the process of re-filling about a foot or so of the pool from my Well, I will be testing my sourse water (well) when my test kit arrives hopefully soon.Have a couple questions.

    1. Is there any specific tests and min/max parameters I should test for and be aware of what will need to be addressed from my well ?
    Filling with well water can be challenging. Do you know if you have high iron content? If you do, you will probably get tinting of the water and possibly staining. Well water can also be high in TA and CH. Many people get water trucked in to avoid these issues...however some of us just deal with it

    Quote Originally Posted by roadking00
    2. I will be putting a whole house pure water filter on my well water to my home (mainly sediment/rust ,5 micron type filter) are there any pros/cons i need to also be aware of when I do this ?
    Sounds like you know problems with your fill water already. The amount of water a pool needs will most likely overwhelm that filter.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  10. Back To Top    #10

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    As far as the well sample, its only been tested last week by the pool store, they told me very low iron if any at all PH at 7.4 and the rest looked fine,no abnormally high levels to speak of that I remember ? Not to much to go on right now..at that time last week I was still going by what the pool guys were telling me and have not ran across this forum...I reackon now is my time to see how my well water will be with my pool when filling or feed/bleed time comes up..hopefully when I get my CYA levels back down and get my pool chemistry balanced right on this BBB plan I wont have to drain as much in the future

    The reason I am looking into the whole house filter came about when I found a bunch of sediment clogged up in my cold water supply screen on my washer machine line..Just bought the home a few months ago and had a bunch of plumbing replaced and remember seeing a inline house filter in the crawl space and now that I had a plumber replace some of the copper piping with pex tubing on the main header of the house plumbing I just noticed yesterday that that inline filter I remember seeing when I first went in the crawl space is not there anymore ....I'm sure my next step will be to flush out my HW heater in the house next ?? All in all its part of the deal of home ownership...esspecially an older home It'll all get worked out eventually in 5-10 yrs maybe...
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

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    First TF-100 Test Results :)

    Ok , I finally was able to get my testing done with my new test kit (and speedster,works GREAT) I believe I was able to lower the CYA a little since the pool stores last test of 144+ by draining what I did so far But looks like it wasn't enough yet so back to draining a bit more.

    Do I concentrate lowering the CYA level before worrying about the rest for now ? And I'm pretty surprised my FC level is still so high,the only thing I added was last Saturday 3lbs of super shock from the pool store (prior to finding TFP)?? I didnt think the levels would maintain for a week already? We havent used the pool yet and the sun has been somewhat on the average side of intensity this week(a couple really hot days)??

    Have a few questions with the testing as well... I apologize in advance if most of these testing questions have been asked already in a post somewhere...

    With the CYA view tube, do I continue adding until even the slight shade of the black circle I can see is completely gone ?
    When doing the TA test the color is more like a light pinkish/red NOT a bright red ,is that typical? or should I be looking for a Bright red ?
    When using the R-0009 reagent , is it really that critical to wipe the tip with a damp cloth after each drop ? I Don't understand what could happen if you don't ?
    When dropping the 5th drop on the CC test there may be a SLIGHT hint of pink, is that something to record ..as a .5 CC maybe ? or should it be a noticeable pink ?

    Pool Water (Well Water)

    PH 7.4-7.5 (7-7.2) I may end up using a HACH PH meter from work (the color shade is a little tough for me)
    CH 230 (130)
    TA 120 (140)
    FC 20
    CC 0-.5 ??
    TC 20 - 20.5 ?
    CYA 100-120 Going to do the diluted method next time...
    Temp 73-74

    Thanks for all the help...
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

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    Re: First TF-100 Test Results :)

    1. To get your CYA down to a manageable level, you will need to drain 50% or more of your pool, so do that first. You want a target CYA of 50ppm. Adjust the rest of your chemistry after you get to your target and have refilled.

    2. Yes, the black dot should be completely obscured

    3. Light, pinkish red is fine.

    4. When the kit is very new, there tends to be a buildup of static electricity between the R-0009 and the bottle and it causes the drops to "jump" off the dropper tip before they are fully formed....the end result is you end up counting too many smaller drops. You can usually wipe it off every 4-5 drops and do just fine. That condition seems to go away after just a few weeks and it is no longer necessary to wipe.

    5. Any drops test should be done by counting drops until that last drop results in NO color change whatsoever. Then, subtract that last drop from your total drops and that is your test result.

    6. pH meters are often inaccurate. The results you report are certainly fine and well within the needs of what we test. That pH test gets easier and easier so I would suggest sticking with it for a bit.

    Your FC is remaining high partly because you have so much CYA in the pool.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    OK thanks Dave, drained the pool down to about a foot left in the low end (guessing that should be about 1/2 ?) and in the fill process now,I'm assuming I'll have to add some bleach by the time its back up to normal level? Cant wait to test again for ALOT lower CYA levels, hopfully by AM time...Slow...COLD...Fill with my well pump...hopefully the well dont run dry
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

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    How many times is drain/refill needed....

    Well I thought my CYA levels we going to be alot better this time considering I drained my pool down a total of about 3-3.5 feet through out the whole darn pool then refilled from my well and my CYA levels didnt drop as much as I expected?? Unless I'm doing something wrong with the test, or just think I cant see the black dot sooner then I really cant...I still have a hard time with what seems to be the shadow of the black dot that I think I am still seeing ?? I remember seeing the dilution method somewhere on a post to get a better reading and then doubling the result for levels close or in the 100's, anybody recall the method?


    PH - 7.4-7.5
    FC - 12
    CC - 0
    TC - 12
    CH - 240
    TA - 120
    CYA - 75-80 (from what I can tell)?
    Temp- 70

    Water looks great , crystal clear... Do I really need to drain/refill some more I thought by now I would have need to add a gallon or so of bleach but my FC is still present in the pool ??
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

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    Re: How many times is drain/refill needed....

    Quote Originally Posted by roadking00
    Well I thought my CYA levels we going to be alot better this time considering I drained my pool down a total of about 3-3.5 feet through out the whole darn pool then refilled from my well and my CYA levels didnt drop as much as I expected?? Unless I'm doing something wrong with the test, or just think I cant see the black dot sooner then I really cant...I still have a hard time with what seems to be the shadow of the black dot that I think I am still seeing ?? I remember seeing the dilution method somewhere on a post to get a better reading and then doubling the result for levels close or in the 100's, anybody recall the method?
    At 75-80 you should not need the dilution. When you water was over 100, it probably was quite aways over 100. A dilution test would have made sense then. CYA can be a tough one to read, tftests sells a standard test solution to help teach the test. Here is a link that has the extended cya test instructions along with a link to a page from taylor's site showing what the dot should look like: http://www.troublefreepool.com/exten...1.html#p206397

    Quote Originally Posted by roadking00
    Water looks great , crystal clear... Do I really need to drain/refill some more I thought by now I would have need to add a gallon or so of bleach but my FC is still present in the pool ??
    You are in a gray area here...If you decide to try running cya this high, you will just have to keep your FC appropriately higher according to the chart or poolcalculator.com and be vigilant to not let it drop too far.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: How many times is drain/refill needed....

    Quote Originally Posted by roadking00
    Well I thought my CYA levels we going to be alot better this time considering I drained my pool down a total of about 3-3.5 feet through out the whole darn pool then refilled from my well and my CYA levels didnt drop as much as I expected?? Unless I'm doing something wrong with the test, or just think I cant see the black dot sooner then I really cant...I still have a hard time with what seems to be the shadow of the black dot that I think I am still seeing ?? I remember seeing the dilution method somewhere on a post to get a better reading and then doubling the result for levels close or in the 100's, anybody recall the method?


    PH - 7.4-7.5
    FC - 12
    CC - 0
    TC - 12
    CH - 240
    TA - 120
    CYA - 75-80 (from what I can tell)?
    Temp- 70

    Water looks great , crystal clear... Do I really need to drain/refill some more I thought by now I would have need to add a gallon or so of bleach but my FC is still present in the pool ??
    you really wont see the dot at all not even a shadow. try holding it up to sunlight when you do it. dilution would only help if you were off the top end of the scale and you couldnt see the dot with just a few milliliters in the tube.
    17,800 gallon, IG pool, 595 sq feet (17x35x4.5 avg rectangle), Hayward 525 cartridge filter, diamondbrite, 2 hp 2 speed hayward tristar filter, Stenner 45mhp10 automatically chlorinating

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Looks like my CYA is still up there around 70-80, back to the drain she goes...pool calc says replace 50% of my water again...Its baffling to me that my FC is still at 12+, could it be mainly because we haven't used the pool yet and the sun hasn't been burning it up yet in this area ? Anyhow, I hope this next drain works..I have five gallons of 12.5% Hypo in the pool house loosing potency
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Ok Fellas,

    Looks like I finnaly drained and refilled enough to get my CYA levels about right Below is my latest test results, I still cant believe my FC levels are where they are
    I am assuming due to the originally extremly high CYA level,early in the season (not baking sunshine yet) and no bathing load yet ?? And apparently is was closed by the previous owner with a high dose of chlorine possibly ? As per the pool calculator, its saying the only thing needed for me right now is to drop my PH down to 7.2 with acid then aerate or use baking soda to raise to normal to drop my TA to normal levels? Any other recommendations/thoughts or am I basically in pretty good shape and just follow the pool calcs direction,and order my stenner and prep for injection ?

    Also, in the pool calc the goal levels for CH is 50-300, the default target was set to 300 and telling me to raise it, whats a good actual target to strive to maintain ?

    ph- 7.5-7.6
    FC- 9.5
    CC- 0
    TA-140 (need to drop it down)
    CH- 220
    CYA- 40-50 (need to double check it better in sunshine, very cloudy tonight)
    Temp- 72 (still a little nip for me and the wife, but the 5 yr old boy dont mind)

    Pool looks Sparkling Clear , its baffling to me that with FC at 9.5 I don't even that chlorine smell most people have in their chlorinated pools ??
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Quote Originally Posted by roadking00
    Ok Fellas,

    Looks like I finnaly drained and refilled enough to get my CYA levels about right Below is my latest test results, I still cant believe my FC levels are where they are
    I am assuming due to the originally extremly high CYA level,early in the season (not baking sunshine yet) and no bathing load yet ?? And apparently is was closed by the previous owner with a high dose of chlorine possibly ? As per the pool calculator, its saying the only thing needed for me right now is to drop my PH down to 7.2 with acid then aerate or use baking soda to raise to normal to drop my TA to normal levels? Any other recommendations/thoughts or am I basically in pretty good shape and just follow the pool calcs direction,and order my stenner and prep for injection ?

    Also, in the pool calc the goal levels for CH is 50-300, the default target was set to 300 and telling me to raise it, whats a good actual target to strive to maintain ?

    ph- 7.5-7.6
    FC- 9.5
    CC- 0
    TA-140 (need to drop it down)
    CH- 220
    CYA- 40-50 (need to double check it better in sunshine, very cloudy tonight)
    Temp- 72 (still a little nip for me and the wife, but the 5 yr old boy dont mind)

    Pool looks Sparkling Clear , its baffling to me that with FC at 9.5 I don't even that chlorine smell most people have in their chlorinated pools ??
    The smell is not chlorine it is from the combined chlorine (CC/ chloramines). they are the product of when chlorine neutralizes organic molecues. Smell bleach, it smells fresh. If you stay on top of your chlorine it will constantly destroy all the organics and also breakdown the CC.

    combined chlorine = burning eyes and that smell that everyone thinks is chlorine.

    Peoples pools smell when they dont have enough chlorine
    17,800 gallon, IG pool, 595 sq feet (17x35x4.5 avg rectangle), Hayward 525 cartridge filter, diamondbrite, 2 hp 2 speed hayward tristar filter, Stenner 45mhp10 automatically chlorinating

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    Re: Wanna get on the BBB plan :)

    Quote Originally Posted by march2012
    Peoples pools smell when they dont have enough chlorine
    And during shocking when CC is being produced even if it is not showing up in test, though it is always noticeable/present. When I opened today and brought the pool up to shock level the CC smell was there.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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