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Thread: New pool build and bonding

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    New pool build and bonding

    I am building my own pool. Except for a few steps I dont want to do. I have an electrician that is helping me however he has limitted experience with article 680 . At least the very latest version. I am up to just having the concrete collar poured and soon to back fill (with gravel). I have read everything I can get my hands on on this topic. I have read "continuous" wire. I.e. run through all grounding lugs with the same wire. Then I have read another that said jumpers using splice lugs to a continuous wire was acceptable. My electrician said that it couldnt be done that way, ( the jumpers) I understand the equo potential grid idea. my question is, that if the wire is not a complete circle. i.e. spliced back to itself, it isnt truely continuous. wouldnt a jumpered split lug disperse any electrical potential that might build up? My plant was to lay an 8 guage bare wire on top of the concrete reinforcement grid 18-24" out from pool. Tie into the reinforcement wire at several spots with splice lugs. Bring the wire the entire circumference of the pool back to itself and back to the pump, then terminating to earth ground. Now jump four spots from coping edge to loop, ladder handles to loop. and jumper light niche to loop.

    Well? I know you dont necessarily give out electrical info but OMG! will this work? Also he said that the inside lug on the niche was "overkill" because the outside lug was connected to it by a solid piece of metal. The way I understand it is outside lug - bonding grid, inside lug - pannel ground via junction box. He said the light caries that ground so it isnt needed?
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Inspectors vary on what they will accept. Most will allow split lug connections just about anywhere using connectors specifically rated as acceptable for bonding, but some won't and insist on continuous single piece. The resistance of a good connection is very low and doesn't significantly impact the effectiveness of the bonding system.

    The bonding system is not normally connected to an earth ground, except incidentally. It used to be prohibited, but is now allowed. Still, I don't recommend it as it creates a ground loop that you didn't have to create.

    Your best resource for what is acceptable is your local inspector. Only they know what they are going to allow and reject (though an experienced local electrician who does this exact kind of work will often have a very close approximation).
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Well I live in the country where there is no inspections. I read mike Holt's explanation of article 860 and yes I am using listed splicing lugs. I am really interested in the question about the inside lug on the Hayward duration niche.
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    All Hayward stainless steel luminaire housings are provided with a combination bonding/grounding connector. The outside connection is the bonding connector as required by Article 680-22 of the NEC. The NEC requires that the bonding wire be 8 AWG or larger.

    Local codes may require a continuous loop and may require that the bonding point on the luminaire housing (niche) be encapsulated. The inside connection is the grounding connector as required by Article 680-22 (b) of the NEC. The NEC requires that when nonmetallic conduit is used, an 8 AWG insulated copper conductor be installed in this conduit.

    This connector is to be connected to the niche grounding connector. The connector and wire termination must be encapsulated with a listed potting compound* to a thickness of at least 1/8 inch (4 mm) in accordance with Article 680 of the NEC.
    * 3M Inc. Scotch Cast Wet Niche Potting Compound No. 2135 (UL File E130394) or equivalent.
    http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/Manual283.pdf
    The Jiffy NicheTM housing is equipped with a combination bonding/grounding connector. The outside connection is the bonding connector as required by Article 680-22 of the NEC.

    Bond the Jiffy NicheTM to the pool structure. Using a solid copper conductor size #8 AWG or larger, connect the bonding connector to all of the metal parts of the swimming pool, spa, or hot tub; and to all electrical equipment, metal piping (except gas piping), and conduit within 5 ft. (1.5m) of the inside walls of the swimming pool, spa, or hot tub.

    Bonding connects all metal parts within and around the swimming pool, spa, or hot tub with a continuous wire. Bonding reduces the risk of a current passing between bonded metal objects, which could potentially cause electrical shock if grounded or shorted. Reference the NEC codes for all wiring standards including, but not limited to, grounding, bonding, and general wiring procedures.

    14. The inside connection is the grounding connector as required by Article 680-20(b) of the NEC. The NEC requires that where a non-metallic conduit is used, a #8 AWG insulated copper conductor be installed in this conduit. Pull this conductor into the niche housing at least 6-8 inches.

    15. Insert the ground conductor through the small hole in the cord seal. To do this, you must first pierce the small hole all the way through the cord seal with a small Philips screwdriver, or similar tool (Fig.4). From the conduit, the ground conductor must be fed through the cord seal from the small to the large end of the taper.

    16. Connect the ground conductor to the niche grounding connector. The connector and wire termination must be encapsulated in 3M Inc. Scotch Cast Wet Niche Potting Compound No. 2135 (UL File E130394) or equivalent, to protect the connection from the possible deterioration effects of pool water.

    http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/Manual334.pdf

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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    An update on the build. The concrete collar was poured yesterday. Yeah. But the concrete guys put in extra braces leaning against the walls and happen to put one on the edge of the skimmer face. It pushed the top corner out of the hole slightly so that it is no longer flush with the inside surface. The collar had set by the time I noticed that and the plumbing in the concrete is now holding the skimmer in that position. It can be torqued back into place with force from the outside and I hope that with the two gaskets and liner and face plate will still seal. Luckily it is the top corner. I tried to upload picture from my phone last night but no luck. Ill get them on later today. The excavator is coming back today to backfill with chet.

    This is a DIY pool build with a couple sub contractors. The concrete guy said the build so far looked better than some pros he has worked with but it is still a LOT of stuff to figgure out as the directions are vague. Each part has its own small owners manual and nothing really ties it all together the way I had hoped. Like I said I will upload some pictures with some more descriptions later today.
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Ok so I looked at the Jiffy niche manual you linked and those instructions are quite different from the one I recieved even though it is a hayward non metallic niche. The outside ring does not screw on. There are only two screws that retain the niche into the collar initially one at twelve and one at six position. There is no cord seal plug as described in that manual. There fore I pressure tested the first run of conduit. Although a seal still seams a good idea. This is my frustration. There are soooo many variations of everything. A screw on locking ring sounds like it would be much better then two screws every time. For a minute there I thought I had made a fatal error until I read further and realized mine was completely different.
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Every time I try to upload a picture I keep getting the message that the file is invalid?
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... -00_56.jpg

    this is pic of pool so far with braces in center for concrete footer pour.

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 54_565.jpg

    Here is the skimmer pushed back.


    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 29_109.jpg

    Outside of light niche with bonding lug

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 41_599.jpg

    Inside of niche with internal bonding lug and plate

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 41_820.jpg

    Plumbing. 2" rigid pvc.

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 05_413.jpg

    Skimmer rigid 2" plumbing (primary) and 1.5" flex pvc ( back up) line. Back up line will remain plugged from both ends unless needed in the future due to failure of primary line.

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 16_210.jpg

    Pretty straight I think.

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 02_116.jpg

    Main drains not so level but I think they can be slightly torqued into level.

    The back fill has been delayed to monday so I am going to work on the equipment pad and bonding in the mean time.

    more pics to come.


    Oh and this was all done in 9 days so far!!
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    One way you could fix that skimmer would be to make a new plumbing run to that skimmer "on top of" the cement collar, then adjust the skimmer as needed.

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Well the back fill was not rescheduled after all so that suggestion just bit the dust
    Guess the old torque back in place will have to do.
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    well, the back fill and grading will be finished tomorrow. I expect my conrete guy will want to come back asap to start laying forms for the deck pour . Last night we cut and installed the coping and laid the equipment pad and set up the filter and pump to start the plumbing at the pad tonight.
    My frustration is goin to be having the step cups in the right place so that they are level with the pour of the concrete. Both the ladder and the hand rail that is at the main step area have two seperate cups and getting them positioned correctly seems tricky. I thought about fabricating some sort of jig to keep them related to one another or driving in some rebar to slip them over. The deep end ladder could be placed with the cups attached if need be but the hand rail is a cantiliever style and would not stay in place. Any ideas of how to get these two cups ready for a concrete man to be able to put them in the right spot would be helpful.

    As soon as the sun comes up I will get more picture updates.

    Oh, and the weight of the rock pushed the skimmer back flush so no worries!
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  13. Back To Top    #13
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Wonderful progress
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Nearly all the plumbing at the equipment pad is finished
    The runs between the pump and filter is delayed to decide which swg to put in line there.

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 28_733.jpg
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    You what the SWG installed after the filter. Otherwise hydrogen gas can accumulate inside the filter and possibly explode.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Well that can be done too

    Guess I can go ahead and run the line between the pump and the filter!!


    As the picture shows. I have a long run between the filter and the first valve I could easily splice in the generator.

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 28_733.jpg

    One snag I ran into was the compression fittings. The ones they sent for the filter cant physically fit side by side. They are too wide. I will have to add an additional addapter to step one out away from the filter so the compression fitting will go.
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Now planning actually ordered salt water generator, looking at my light it says "for fresh water only".
    Will this work in a salt water pool? Is it still considered fresh water?
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  18. Back To Top    #18
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Pool SWG levels of salt are considered fresh water. Real salt water is around 35,000, while SWG salt is around 3,500.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    Thanks
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Re: New pool build and bonding

    The back fill and grading now complete. Forms for deck going in. A lot should happen in the next three or four days. Last night I pinned out the bottom for the quick crete, right after the deck is finished we will move right on into the getting the bottom material in. I am going to have a landscaping nightmare when this is all over!!
    The white "pipes" are my ladder jigs that I made to hold the cups in relationship to each other so they can be set in the cement.

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 37_385.jpg

    Ill put in a pic of the strings although you cant see them all that well.

    http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w43 ... 08_755.jpg

    And Ill put my question here again. its on another thread and I kind of need an answer

    Is it best to have a timer or let your pump run all the time. Pool size 18 x 36 pump 1 hp
    15,000 gallon, IG Diamond Brite plaster, Hayward Max Flo 1.5HP pump, Pentair Clean and Clear 100gpm cartridge filter. http://imgur.com/xHFxE

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