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Thread: Plumbing Help

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    Plumbing Help

    As I slowly progress in my remodel design, I have identified a preliminary plumbing design. I would like to see if anyone has any input on what changes may be recommended? Here are a few questions I have myself:

    Is the check valve needed between the filter and salt cell? They are close in proximity (<5')

    Currently my main drain and skimmer are assumed to be tied together since I only have one line to my existing equipment. Do you recommend keeping them tied together or splitting them once I get the deck torn up? If splitting, then I need to revise my diagram.

    The vacuum line??? I currently use a Kreepy Krawler than pulls off my skimmer. What size line is recommended as this will be an added feature? How much bigger should I core the hole in the existing pool? What is the best way to seal this? Or will the new plaster provide the final seal?

    I am doing this is slowly and plan to do as much of the plumbing now but don't plan on the replastering until the season is over. With that being said, my current skimmer has a 1.5" cooper line that somewhere under the deck transitions to 2" pvc. Should I hold off installing the salt cell and use the winter cell insert until I get that copper line removed? Should I be concerned about the potential salt build up on that skimmer pipe?

    What I don't know is if they use copper on my main drain as well. If they did, could that throw a wrench into my plans to go with salt? Or is that possible that the contractor can remove that line and replace with pvc during the replastering process?
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Dr. Mary, Brooksville, FL 1)3800 gals Intex pool, 16 x 42, 95% direct sun 2)Cartridge Filter 2500 gal. (Intex) 3)AG Pool 4)SWG

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    Not sure how to answer some of your questions, but here is what I do know:

    No check valve should be needed between the filter and SWG.

    If is it easy enough to do, I would split the main drain and skimmer to separate runs back to the pad. This will reduce head loss and give greater freedom of water flow.

    The check valves in your diagram at the pumps seems odd to me as I thought check valves on the suction side were generally not a good idea for entrapment purposes. I understand why you need something with the 2 pumps, but I am not sure how it is normally done.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    Hi Jason,
    Thanks for responding. My system currently has no check valves and I was told by a friend that I should add them. I was uncertain on the location. Based on your comment above I see how it could be an issue on the suction side. Would you recommend placing them on the return side for both?

    Any thoughts about running a SWG with the copper pipe being in my skimmer? Should I wait to install until after that piping is replaced this winter?
    Dr. Mary, Brooksville, FL 1)3800 gals Intex pool, 16 x 42, 95% direct sun 2)Cartridge Filter 2500 gal. (Intex) 3)AG Pool 4)SWG

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    Afraid both those questions are over my head ... I do not know how multi pump systems sharing a suction line are plumbed.

    I did find this thread regarding copper and SWG:
    newbie-swg-and-copper-plumbing-question-t34779.html?hilit=SWG%20copper%20pipe
    There may be other threads as well is you run a search.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    1) I'd do away with all the check valves. On a properly sealed system you shouldn't need them.

    2) I'd split the MD and skimmer into separate lines back to the pad. (agreeing with JB).

    3) I'd do away with the second pump and let the Intelliflo handle the waterfall.

    4) Your copper piping issue might be a moot point as since you're remodeling you should upgrade the MD to a double MD configuration to comply with the "Virginia Graeme Baker" act. If you hire a contractor to do it, they most likely don't have a choice in whether to do it or not. There are other ways to comply, so your local codes will prevail.

    5) I'd go with a larger filter also. Something in the 80 ft² range.

    How large is your pool?

    Are you planning on adding more returns?
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    Hi Dave,
    Thanks for the info.

    My pool is currently an estimated 25,000 gallons. During the remodel we are going to add a baja step, so that will drop a little.

    The pool is currently equipped with 3 return locations.

    1) Why would someone need to use a check valve? My equipment is probably 12-18" above the waterline. Does that make a difference?

    2) So you feel that a second pump for a waterfall is a waste? I am OK with using the intelliflo to do both. On the return side just use a diverter valve for pool return or waterfall??? I plan on installing the Easy Touch automation and adding some actuators.

    3) When I add my dedicated vacuum line, do you recommend 1.5" piping? I use a Kreepy. Currently I use my skimmer line.

    4) My last question.......if I split the MD and skimmer, and add a vacuum line.......how would you configure that plumbing? Should I add an additional diverter and actuator when I want the vacuum to run?? Or should that suction port just be a "T" in the line after the MD/Skimmer valve and always be operating regardless if the vacuum is in the pool or not. Currently I let the vacuum operate daily the entire time the pump runs since I only have a skimmer line and don't have enough time to take it in and out of the pool.

    I am familiar with that MD requirement law. I was assuming that the second drain would be added. I wasn't sure how easy it would be to get the existing pipe out of the original system and/or bore a new line in for the pool drains.

    thanks for the advice.
    Dr. Mary, Brooksville, FL 1)3800 gals Intex pool, 16 x 42, 95% direct sun 2)Cartridge Filter 2500 gal. (Intex) 3)AG Pool 4)SWG

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    Eliminating the waterfall pump would certainly simplify things.

    On the return side I would think a single 3-way valve with actuator would allow your automation to be set up to to allow you to select pool or waterfall return (you can adjust the stops to set the amount of water flow you like on the waterfall)

    On the suction side, the simplest setup would just be putting a 2-way valve on each line (skimmer, floor, vacuum) and then manually selecting which you open. If you want to be able to set the automation to turn on the cleaner for certain periods of time, you could put an actuated 3-way valve (one side from vacuum line the other from skimmer & floor) and then have a 2-way valve on each the floor and skimmer line (or I guess you could put a 3-way valve between the skimmer and floor instead of the two 2-ways) to allow you to control where the water is pulled from.

    I am not sure it matters much if you go with the 1.5" or 2" from the vacuum port ... although you may need a 2 way valve also on the vacuum line to adjust flow through the cleaner (or you will have to adjust the cleaner 3-way valve to be pulling the correct amount of water through the cleaner ... although I guess I am not sure if you can end up with too much suction).
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    1) Once the pump is primed the water will stay static until you turn the pump on or open the system. The check valve idea is to keep from backflowing through the filter but without solar it's not going to do that. The waterfall might allow it to do that but you can add a check valve in that line if you see it's a problem.

    2) I'd use a 3-way as JB stated.

    3&4) 1½" is plenty for a suction vac. I'd add a 3-way like shown in your diagram so you can adjust the amount of suction to the vac. I'd also add a separate 3-way to adjust between the MD and the skimmer/vac line. You can have too much suction to the vac. You would normally use a vacuum regulator in the vac line but with that 3-way valve you can set it with the valve. There's also an added benefit. You will maintain some skimmer action while the vacuum is running where with a skimmer plate you lose all skimmer action.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    Guys,
    Thanks for the advice.

    I am trying to sketch this out to make sure I understand it right: (1) 3 way between my skimmer and MD. On the line be this 3 way and the pump, add a 2nd 3 way with the vacuum line. Therefore, I can adjust the skimmer & drain and on the vacuum line I can adjust the flow (suction) of that line and how it coordinates with the skimmer/MD line.

    I will consider keeping a check valve on the waterfall only. I have been looking at pictures on-line and You-Tube for pool plumbing. Why do some people show the check valve installed near the salt cell? They look to be between the filter and salt cells. Is this necessary or recommended by the manufacturer?
    Dr. Mary, Brooksville, FL 1)3800 gals Intex pool, 16 x 42, 95% direct sun 2)Cartridge Filter 2500 gal. (Intex) 3)AG Pool 4)SWG

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    The check valve is recommended by the mfg's. It's a failsafe measure to prevent hydrogen gas from being backed into the filter. Of course, for that to happen, the flow woud have to stop and the cell would have to keep generating and the plumbing would have to slope up from the cell to the filter. The flow switch would stop the cell from generating as soon as the flow stopped.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Plumbing Help

    Dave,
    So here is quick sketch based on the comments. Can you take a quick look and tell me if this looks better.

    I have left the check valve off the diagram. The question that just popped into my head......if I put a check valve on the waterfall line will it then keep water sitting in that line when not in use? If so, is that a problem to have potential sitting water? Will it cause algae if the line sits closed or unused for long periods of time????
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Dr. Mary, Brooksville, FL 1)3800 gals Intex pool, 16 x 42, 95% direct sun 2)Cartridge Filter 2500 gal. (Intex) 3)AG Pool 4)SWG

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    I can't get it to download but I'll check it tomorrow.

    The water would sit in it but since it's off the swcg it slightly higher in FC than normal and it should be ok. Once you turn it on it'll see chlorinated water and will be fine.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing Help

    Quote Originally Posted by bduffield73
    Dave,
    So here is quick sketch based on the comments. Can you take a quick look and tell me if this looks better.

    I have left the check valve off the diagram. The question that just popped into my head......if I put a check valve on the waterfall line will it then keep water sitting in that line when not in use? If so, is that a problem to have potential sitting water? Will it cause algae if the line sits closed or unused for long periods of time????
    That drawing looks good to me (other than the "orientation" of the 3-way between the pump and vacuum ... you need the pump to connect to the middle of the valve ideally and the same thing with the return valve ... water should enter the middle of the valve).

    If you have the waterfall turned off, there will be water trapped in the pipes also. I think the suggestion for the check valve was for if you ran the waterfall and then turned the pump off leaving that valve set to waterfall. Then the little bit of water in the pipe up to the waterfall could flow backwards toward the filter. But, that is probably a very small amount of water and I do not see the point of the check valve.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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