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Thread: Equipment help/suggestions needed

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    Equipment help/suggestions needed

    Brief history.. I am not a complete noob with regards to pools, but growing up I learned from my Dad to throw chlorine pellets in the float and put liquid acid in when water testing said it was necessary (in ground pool btw). Anyway, now I am looking at having my own in ground pool installed and I am looking to be a little less slap-dash about the whole thing.

    The pool will be using a pebble type coating instead of plaster or quartz, and will probably be in the 20~25k gallon range. Or house faces N/S so the sun will make a full pass over the pool, and since we are in a brand new subdivision there are no large trees or pretty much any other type of sun blocking going on.

    So, what I am looking at is an Ozone/CO2 setup. I am trying to stay away from salt for various reasons (residue, damage to coping material etc)

    I have done a fair bit of reading (I am sure its never enough) but I am looking for some advice from someone other than the pool salesman. To his credit he is affiliated with a large pool company but they are willing to buy and install pretty much whatever I want. They are not cramming any one brand of equipment down my throat.

    I have found a guy not too far from Austin that sells various ozonation configurations and I am looking at one that will deliver about 4gr/hr http://www.ozonepurewater.com/Ozonators.htm#2

    I am also looking at a CO2 as a stand-in for the more traditional liquid acid.

    I have been looking at something like the CAT 2000 to control the CO2 and Ozone. The "pool guy" is suggesting a Jandy unit (Aqualink RS I believe but don't have his email in front of me at the moment) and I am not sure how one compares to the other.

    I have also read a few posts on here that seem to be, well maybe anti-ozone is a bit much, but definitely not proponents of ozone.

    So I am looking for feedback. Anyone running CO2? Is ozone really not effective, even in relatively high concentrations?

    Am I making this too complicated? I don't have a $1,000,000 to spend but I am willing to put a few $$'s into the chemical controllers to hopefully keep manual maintenance to a minimum.

    Thanks and I hope to hear from ya.

    David
    ---------------------
    Dave from Cupertino

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    Re: Equipment help/suggestions needed

    Welcome to the forum.
    well maybe anti-ozone is a bit much
    No, it's not too much. Virtually everyone who contributes regularly to this forum is not a proponent of ozone. It has a place in an indoor pool and, I think, can be effective in VERY large commercial pools.

    The issue is ozone still requires the use of chlorine as a residual sanitizer to keep your pool safe. So, the common sense thinking here is that, if you need chlorine anyway, why spend the extra money on ozone?

    Keep searching and you will find many threads but they essentially all get back to the point above. Additionally, ozone folks tend to overstate the benefits of their product by putting a pretty long stretch on the truth.

    BBB that we advocate is all about simplicity and having a very good understanding of pool water chemistry. The end result is a pool that is easy to maintain and inexpensive to operate.

    Check out Pool School..ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry and the other articles there......it's a great spot to start.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Equipment help/suggestions needed

    Thank you for the reply... I was under the impression that if I kept the ozone level high enough that it would replace the need for chlorine for residual sanitation. Obviously that thought process is incorrect.

    I am still curious about the CO2 as a pH control method. I have read some articles about the difficulty of dissolving enough CO2 into the water to make this work, but other articles state that with the newer processes that this is a reliable and effective process.

    I am going to go find the email I referenced earlier and see if the equipment combo they recommended would be a good fit for a BBB implementation.

    Thanks again and glad I found this place...
    ---------------------
    Dave from Cupertino

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    Re: Equipment help/suggestions needed

    Quote Originally Posted by ATXCO2
    I am going to go find the email I referenced earlier and see if the equipment combo they recommended would be a good fit for a BBB implementation.
    I found the email. Here is what they recommended to me.. a Jandy C1900 Chemlink system that includes 2 Stenner peristaltic pumps, 2 x 5 gallon tanks (1 for each pump), and a flow sensor for 2200.00 retail. I need to check these prices more closely to see if I am being taken.

    So if I scrap the ozone idea and use a chlorine injection method this should be a good solution. As you can see this includes 2 pumps/tanks so it was quoted to support a liquid chlorine and acid solution.

    Part of my reasoning for CO2 was not having to store liquid acid in tanks and should the entire CO2 tank decide to dump its contents I don't believe it would be as big of a problem as would having excess amounts of HCL or the like dumped into the pool. Again, am I out in left field here?

    I have read posts of others with this Jandy unit so I am assuming it is a reliable and respectible piece of equipment. I was looking at the CAT 2000 for PH/ORP control. Pros/Cons one over the other?

    Sorry if this isnt the correct forum for these types of questions. If I need to post elsewhere please let me know.
    ---------------------
    Dave from Cupertino

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    Re: Equipment help/suggestions needed

    At first blush, the chlorine dispenser system seems okay from a philosopy standpoint. I haven't looked at the product yet and I'm not so sure why two pumps are required.....perhaps that can be done just as effectively for less money.

    How big is your pool?

    What city and state?

    Have you considered an SWG?

    There are several people here with acid injection systems that work. For me, my acid addition is small enough (about 2 gallons/year) that it is far easier for me to do it manually. I think I would leave some space to install it but hold off on it until you see what kind of acid requirement your pool wants.....they are all different.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Equipment help/suggestions needed

    We've lived with a C1900 with bleach/acid setup for about a year now. We also have a UV filter to help keep Chlorine levels lower. I'll start off by saying the I'm a technology and controls geek, so I am tolerant of spending more $ is it gets my geek on. The setup works well and maintains very consistent levels. That said, it is by no means even close to being a cost saving feature.

    1) UV light lasts about a year, at the cost of $180 each
    2) pH sensors last about a year, at the cost of $165 each
    3) My ORP sensor has definitely changed in sensitivity when I pulled the system out of hibernation. Seems to be holding. An ORP sensor is $165.
    4) You can't let these things freeze, especially the pumps, so even in austin you will need to yank the system for a month or two in the winter.
    5) You can't co-locate the pumps and the acid tank(if you go this way) or you will be buying a new pump ($250)
    6) The system works best if you are constantly circulating water. We use a variable speed pump and run it at low speeds 24/7.
    7) You'll need a secondary very accurate method to calibrate the pH sensor, it drifts a point every other month.
    8) Even though the UV system seems to be very good at it's job, you must run at least 0.5-1.0 ppm to avoid problems with pollen and leaves.

    Let me know you you want to chat about it more, I'm in the arboretum area.
    38K Gallons IG, Intelliflow VS-SVRS, 30GPM 24/7, 72sqft DE Filter, Spectralight UV, Jandy C1900 driving Liquid Chlorine and Acid (toys, I know..), Jandy LXi gas heater, Aquacal SQ175 Heatpump, Riverflow Competition swimmer, Jandy automation, Touch and iAqualink, Pebblesheen | The Build

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    Re: Equipment help/suggestions needed

    Quote Originally Posted by ATXCO2
    I have read posts of others with this Jandy unit so I am assuming it is a reliable and respectible piece of equipment. I was looking at the CAT 2000 for PH/ORP control. Pros/Cons one over the other?
    If you into hobbies and love fiddling with electronics, or are running a large commercial pool, systems like these are fun and/or worth getting. Otherwise, they are a lot more trouble than they are worth and don't end up simplifying or improving much of anything.

    Pumping the entire tank of acid into the pool is a very unusual failure mode. The control systems all go to some lengths to prevent that, and it happens slowly enough that if it did somehow happen you ought to notice it. A much more common failure mode is simply stopping feeding acid for one reason or another. The number two failure mode is dumping a little acid right around the pump head and then shutting down. A distant third is pumping a cup or two of acid on the equipment pad, which is just about tied with leaks around the injection fitting.

    Nearly all of the PH/ORP systems use components from the same limited set of suppliers and thus they all work just about the same. The sensors need to be replaced every other year, they drift, tanks run out of whatever and need to be refilled. ORP sensor are prone to wildly erroneous readings under some conditions, and even when working need to be recalibrated against drop tests regularly. The various components also add significantly to the number of winterizing and spring openning tasks.

    Simple percentage or timer based feed systems are more reliable, less expensive, and in many situations work just as well.

    I have an ORP/PH system but it has been disabled for the last two years. Having turned it off, I have half as much work to do, save a couple hundred dollars each year, and have better water quality. I balanced the PH so it doesn't drift at all, so no need for acid feed. And since the simplified system never fails, I don't run into water problems as I used to every time something would go wrong. Though I must say, I was really loving it the first year, being a serious electronic toy lover.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Equipment help/suggestions needed

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    I have an ORP/PH system but it has been disabled for the last two years. Having turned it off, I have half as much work to do, save a couple hundred dollars each year, and have better water quality. I balanced the PH so it doesn't drift at all, so no need for acid feed. And since the simplified system never fails, I don't run into water problems as I used to every time something would go wrong. Though I must say, I was really loving it the first year, being a serious electronic toy lover.
    I guess this is my concern... I do love gadgety things with twiddly knobs and LCD displays and all that stuff, but part of the goal is to automate/simply maintenance. I understand that even with all the automation in the world that regular water testing and the like is still required, but if I would be better off buying a larger or more capable DE filter vs. dumping money into the C1900 I might go that route. All the years watching Dad take care of our pools he never used (not that it was all that available) all sorts of fancy stuff. A float with chlorine tabs, a bottle of acid in the garage and simple testing. Yeah, we had the mild eye burn after swimming for hours on end, but it wasn't that much effort on his part. I am thinking with a bit more dillegence I could achieve something similar and reduce the eye burn.

    I am curious how you have balanced the pH to a point that it doesn't drift, or is that simply due to your diligent efforts and staying on top of your water chemistry? I am also concerned about the CH in my water. I live in Pflugerville TX where the water is quite hard and I am wondering if it is worth trucking in better water to start with, or possibly calling out one of those sort-of R.O. filters on wheels.

    Anyway, we are still waiting on the bank for financing but have signed all the contingency papers with the pool company. Looking to be a 34' long pool ranging anywhere from 9 feet wide to as much as 19' wide and decending to a depth of 6 feet. So it will not be a massive pool, but still quite a good size.
    ---------------------
    Dave from Cupertino

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Equipment help/suggestions needed

    Quote Originally Posted by ATXCO2
    Yeah, we had the mild eye burn after swimming for hours on end, but it wasn't that much effort on his part. I am thinking with a bit more dillegence I could achieve something similar and reduce the eye burn.
    That we can help with. Eyes burning is either ph or combined chlorine (CC). Both of these are easy to control without a lot of effort using the basic pool chemistry taught here at tfp.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATXCO2
    I am curious how you have balanced the pH to a point that it doesn't drift, or is that simply due to your diligent efforts and staying on top of your water chemistry?
    Many of us are able to reduce ph drift by adjusting our pool's TA, usually lower.

    Have you read this pool school article yet? http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-...ater_chemistry
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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