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Thread: Main pump Low flow

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    Main pump Low flow

    Hi!

    It must be Spring - I'm posting to TFP! I usually embarass myself with dumb Qs, so here goes! All these questions tie together but there are too many of them. The one I want to ask is at the bottom.

    My main Hayward 1.0HP pump is not cascading water adequately out of the raised hot tub down to the pool. This has been gradual since the end of last season. It seems unaffected by cleaning of my 4 cartridge Hayward filter. That valve on the top of this filter housing has NEVER gone up in response to dirty filter. But for what it's worth it is 18.

    The housing does not leak, the basket housing is full of water without bubbles (I have never been able to get this chamber full of water before replacing lid. Am I supposed to? After lid is on air goes away. That's self priming right?
    The pump does not make any different noise.

    My nemesis since pool installed 6 yrs ago => the decomposing natural slate my wife chose for walls above waterline. SAND, sheets of SHALE. The vacuum has picked this up well but I have had to suction with tubing attached to skimmer outlet (as described on TFP).

    Other than more frequent cartridge cleaning and being harder to maintain a neutral pH ( I assume this is what slate does, alkalinizes the water. slate = clay = high pH in soils anyway).

    The kid at the pool store said maybe the housing has leaf debris in it or that the constant sand has worn down impeller blades(esp with manual cleaning).

    Is there any reason to tear this pump apart?
    Is 6 yrs old nearing life span?
    May be it is time for a 2 speed anyway? THis is the cat's a** now?
    Thanks As Always!
    Bob

    23,000 gal in-ground, Aquarite salt sys, Intellitouch i7 +3, Hayward cartridge filter (4) C-5025, Polaris 280 Pool Cleaner, 3/4 HP booster pump, Hydrazzo plaster.

  2. Back To Top    #2

    Re: Main pump Low flow

    Sorry,

    Thought I had an automatic signature!

    Thanks!

    Bob
    Thanks As Always!
    Bob

    23,000 gal in-ground, Aquarite salt sys, Intellitouch i7 +3, Hayward cartridge filter (4) C-5025, Polaris 280 Pool Cleaner, 3/4 HP booster pump, Hydrazzo plaster.

  3. Back To Top    #3
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Main pump Low flow

    As long as the air in the pump basket goes away, then you are primed. Some just need help by manually filling the pump basket ... yours sounds fine.

    A SWG will generally cause the pH to drift up. If your TA is also on the high side, that can also pull the pH up ... may not be related to the slate, but maybe that is also helping to pull the pH up ... post a full set of test results and lets see if something is off.

    On the pump, it would not hurt to pull the pump apart and inspect the impeller. If it looks warn, the cheapest option would be to just replace the impeller (and a new seal kit while you are in there). Some pumps/motor last for much longer than 6 years.

    At least it appears that your pump is not too oversized for your pool. You could certainly save some electricity by going with a 2-speed pump although in low speed your cascade will be even less than what you have now.

    Does your filter gauge go to zero when your pump is off? Wondering if it could be broken or if you really do not get any pressure rise.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Re: Main pump Low flow

    Jason,

    Thanks for that. pH discussion another time then!

    As long as the pump lookie has a purpose I will do that. Thanks for giving me perspective on pump aging!

    Actually I have posted about my failed SWG in the past. I have had it up to 100% and had falling chlorine levels and I pretty much ignore it and use chemicals. Have not unplugged it yet or replaced unit with pipe though. The Goldline/Hayward person I talked to said my unit for 23K was not adequate or would not last long and his solution was replacement and I then got lost on TFP as to an orderly way to trouble shoot "is it dead?"

    Ahhh...thanks for reminding me...the pressure gauge goes to 3 when pump is off.

    This slate makes filter cartridge cleaning a mud bath. Add to it, the filter housing is cracked at drain plug (me overtighten???) and leaks so I try to wet vac out the housing instead of drain it. It all equals = I hate that slate. I'm surprised the builder and the mason didn't caution against it. I guess any stone degrades unless it is a glazed tile but this has been ridiculous.
    Thanks As Always!
    Bob

    23,000 gal in-ground, Aquarite salt sys, Intellitouch i7 +3, Hayward cartridge filter (4) C-5025, Polaris 280 Pool Cleaner, 3/4 HP booster pump, Hydrazzo plaster.

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Re: Main pump Low flow

    Also...

    We are in an interior valley of North Cal and overnight freezes lead to big electric bills. The pump goes on at 37F and I have cheated that down to 35F but a thermostat failure that causes a greater than 5F inaccuracy would be really bad.

    Why don't they have controls that let pumps cycle on and off? 5 minutes every hour? Or a "trickle speed" Would that not do the job?

    That is why I was thinking 2 speed.
    Thanks As Always!
    Bob

    23,000 gal in-ground, Aquarite salt sys, Intellitouch i7 +3, Hayward cartridge filter (4) C-5025, Polaris 280 Pool Cleaner, 3/4 HP booster pump, Hydrazzo plaster.

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Main pump Low flow

    The cells generally seem to last 3-5 years ... if yours is 6, it is likely dead What you described, along with reading lower and lower slat levels when in fact the level is fine is a sign of a failing cell. I assume you have pulled the cell out and looked for scaling by now. What size cell did you have? You should definitely get the 40k cell if/when you replace it.

    Sounds like you need a new gauge ... that can certainly help some aspects of pool care.

    How cold do you actually get at night? If you barely get below freezing and that only for a few hours, you can likely just shut off the freeze protection (do you have solar panels, because that could change my suggestion). There was a discussion somewhere on here about how it takes a pretty long time to freeze a full pvc pipe. You may be able to just throw a blanket/tarp over your pad to hold in a little warmth as well. Running on low speed of a 2-speed is certainly another option.

    I am guessing your electric rates a pretty high over there? If they are high enough, and you have rebates available, a variable speed pump may pay for itself. You can run them VERY slowly (well under a 2-speed) if needed.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Re: Main pump Low flow

    Thanks Jason.

    I have my answers.

    I'll have to check out 2 cycle pumps...

    Wow -- my cell is a Turbo Cell 15 (does that mean for 15K gallons?) No wonder.

    Freeze ---> low to mid 20s for 4-5 days straight is the worst of it. Other weeks 28-30 for 4-5 days. Maybe I should go with the straight 32F and use a second digital thermometer to cross check accuracy.
    Thanks As Always!
    Bob

    23,000 gal in-ground, Aquarite salt sys, Intellitouch i7 +3, Hayward cartridge filter (4) C-5025, Polaris 280 Pool Cleaner, 3/4 HP booster pump, Hydrazzo plaster.

  8. Back To Top    #8
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Main pump Low flow

    I am not sure where you are but I live in Northern CA and never use freeze protection. It takes far longer for the water to freeze in the pipes than the time the air temp is below 32F.

    Also, the T-15 Cell is for a 40k pool.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Re: Main pump Low flow

    Mark,

    I'm in Pleasanton.

    My worst nights (consequetive stretches) are below (from a NOAH report)

    The builders recommendation has cost me a lot of money over the years. Freeze on at 35 is as low as I went.

    I started servicing the pool myself year 3 and began to see the difficulty with SWG function. So maybe it crapped out about the time I took over.

    Replacement is 800-ish. I can buy a lot of clorox for 800 bucks. Kids are in it twice per week and I actually have let the chlorine levels go light toward the weekend to reduce chemical exposure and boost it when they are done (so as to not rot their brain kidney and liver)

    2011 12 23 25.0
    2011 12 24 26.1
    2011 12 25 25.0
    2011 12 26 26.1

    2012 1 9 33.1
    2012 1 10 32.0
    2012 1 11 33.1
    2012 1 12 33.1
    2012 1 13 32.0
    2012 1 14 30.9
    2012 1 15 28.9
    2012 1 16 23.0
    2012 1 17 24.1
    2012 1 18 25.0
    2012 1 19 28.9
    Thanks As Always!
    Bob

    23,000 gal in-ground, Aquarite salt sys, Intellitouch i7 +3, Hayward cartridge filter (4) C-5025, Polaris 280 Pool Cleaner, 3/4 HP booster pump, Hydrazzo plaster.

  10. Back To Top    #10
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Main pump Low flow

    $800 seems pretty high for a new cell ... You should be able to find a 40k cell for about half that.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  11. Back To Top    #11
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Main pump Low flow

    If it makes you feel any better, I used freeze protection the first year of the pool. Then I started doing a little math and calculated how long it would take for water to freeze in a 2" pipe when the temps get down to 24 degrees and it turned out to be over 20 hours even with a 10 mph wind so with only 6 hours below freezing I wasn't too worried. Plus I ran a test in the freezer and it took close to 12 hours for a 2" PVC pipe to freeze at 0 F. Even a 1" metal pipe took 6 hours to freeze at 0 F.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Re: Main pump Low flow

    Jason -- OK I'll look.

    Mark -- Alrighty, I like your experiments! Hmmm... I wonder how much my level of salinity lowers the freezing point.
    -- In my defense I wasn't so concerned about the pipes as I was "little places" in pumps, valves, etc.


    BUT:

    From the Weather Channel -- do we have dead ends in our systems?

    Why Pipes Burst

    Surprisingly, ice forming in a pipe does not typically cause a break where the ice blockage occurs. It's not the radial expansion of ice against the wall of the pipe that causes the break. Rather, following a complete ice blockage in a pipe, continued freezing and expansion inside the pipe causes water pressure to increase downstream -- between the ice blockage and a closed faucet at the end. It's this increase in water pressure that leads to pipe failure. Usually the pipe bursts where little or no ice has formed. Upstream from the ice blockage the water can always retreat back towards its source, so there is no pressure build-up to cause a break. Water has to freeze for ice blockages to occur. Pipes that are adequately protected along their entire length by placement within the building's insulation, insulation on the pipe itself, or heating, are safe.
    Thanks As Always!
    Bob

    23,000 gal in-ground, Aquarite salt sys, Intellitouch i7 +3, Hayward cartridge filter (4) C-5025, Polaris 280 Pool Cleaner, 3/4 HP booster pump, Hydrazzo plaster.

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Re: Main pump Low flow

    Mark you are in Pleasanton too.

    Huh, just saw that!
    Thanks As Always!
    Bob

    23,000 gal in-ground, Aquarite salt sys, Intellitouch i7 +3, Hayward cartridge filter (4) C-5025, Polaris 280 Pool Cleaner, 3/4 HP booster pump, Hydrazzo plaster.

  14. Back To Top    #14
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Main pump Low flow

    For the most part, a pool system is fairly open but closed valves (regular and check) are probably the most vulnerable since one side is already closed and if an ice dam formed close to the valve it might break the inner part of the valve first but if it is a replaceable inner valve, then that would be easy to fix. Most everything else would have a pressure relief in one direction or another. But that is all moot if the water never freezes solid in the first place.

    Note too that there is a lot of latent heat in the equipment and water, especially in the filter. All that heat needs to be removed before any of the water would start to freeze. So the filter will act as a heat source for the rest of the plumbing. Also, if your equipment is near your house, that will also act as another heat source delaying freezing even further.

    To me freeze protection is only useful for those people who don't close their pools and may have a long stretch of sub zero days. But then I would be more inclined to just drain the pad equipment during that stretch rather than run the pump.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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