Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42

Thread: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Hello All,

    I apologize if this has been touched upon before, but the 16+ pages post on Borates is a tad long

    I am using Proteam's Supreme (they did not have the acid neutral PLUS version) and got my pool all set last year, right after it was build.
    In order to keep my optimizer level I have to add a good 1-2 pints per week and also twice had to add 10 lbs just to keep my Borate levels steady.
    TA and PH also require a lot of adjusting, we have strong winds and full sun exposure - would you consider this quantity of Borates consumption "normal"? I had thought this is more-or-less a one-time application.

    Thanks.
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,337

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    How are you testing your Borates?

    In fact, go ahead and post a full set of test results and how you got them. Your pH and TA shouldn't be swinging if everything is balanced, especially with borates added.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    I am actually going to a local Pool Store to get my water tested on a weekly basis.
    It's TexSun here in Houston and they have a good reputation.

    I'll have to scan and post my last results tomorrow
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Some basic numbers I got:
    TC/FC: 0.8 before I shocked last night
    TA: 120
    PH: 7.8 (added 2 pts of acid to get in range)
    Optimizer: 50 ppm
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  5. Back To Top    #5
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,337

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    You're way better off having your own kit but we'll work with those numbers for now. Your FC is way too low and your TA is too high. The TA is what's causing your pH to rise so quickly.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    How much fresh water do you add on a weekly basis?

    Are your cyanuric acid levels staying consistent, rising or falling?

    Note: Borates are not consumed. They only get lost due to water loss other than evaporation.

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Hello Everyone,
    I am attaching this past weekend water testing results for review and comment.

    Notes on measurements that are off balance:

    TA/Adj TA: Comments above indicate TA=120 being too high. Per our pool store however the target range is 125-150 adjusted, and we were only at TA=104
    .I also typically use Baking Soda to adjust this. This time we added one 12lb bag of balance pak however (on sale with other items). Have not reject yet, but expect to be where needed per pool store target.

    Borates/Optimizer:
    We use Supreme and Supreme Plus and added a little to boost into 70-90 range (target per store).
    Our pool looses a lot of water due to heavy winds, about 1 inch per week.

    Appreciate any feedback.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  8. Back To Top    #8
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,337

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    One thing you're going to have to do is make up your mind whether you're going to follow our advice or keep following the Pool Store advice. Ours and theirs are likely going to conflict and that's going to confuse you.

    Take the TA for example. We say to maintain it at about 80 ppm because we know that if you do that your pH will rise a lot less than if it's at 120 ppm. We also disagree with them about a lot of levels.

    Back to your Borates question. If you're losing water because of blowout then you'll lose other chemicals too but if it's due to evaporation only the water will evaporate. The rest of the chemicals don't evaporate (borates included).

    Now a few comments on your test results.

    pH = 7.5, That's ideal but I have no idea how often you ahve to adjust it.
    FC = 1.6, Given a CYA of 99 (and it may be much higher) the FC is way too low.
    TC = 1.6, Since it equals FC that's a good thing. Though it doesn't really tell you a anything.
    TA = 104, that's not bad if your using pucks but if your having pH issues it should be lower.
    TH = 220, That doesn't really tell us anything as what we really need to know is the CH (Calcium Hardness) not the total hardness.
    CYA = 99, this is way too high. Even though it says 99 it may be much higher than that because the test only goes to 100, and the pool stores will report it at 99 because if it goes over 100 the only recommendation they have is to drain water and refill.
    Borates = 62, That's more than recommended. You should only have about 50 ppm.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    One thing you're going to have to do is make up your mind whether you're going to follow our advice or keep following the Pool Store advice. Ours and theirs are likely going to conflict and that's going to confuse you.

    Take the TA for example. We say to maintain it at about 80 ppm because we know that if you do that your pH will rise a lot less than if it's at 120 ppm. We also disagree with them about a lot of levels.
    Trying to find the "best answer". So I appreciate everyone's input !

    To clarify the above point on TA. I understand the ideal range to be 80-120 ppm. So between this forum and the pool store it's just a matter of what direction I target. I think I will shoot for 80-90 as I do experience quick rises in ph.

    What is the significance of ADJUSTED TA in this respect? Which should I pay attention to more?
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    Back to your Borates question. If you're losing water because of blowout then you'll lose other chemicals too but if it's due to evaporation only the water will evaporate. The rest of the chemicals don't evaporate (borates included).
    --> Yes, lost mostly due to blowout !

    Now a few comments on your test results.

    pH = 7.5, That's ideal but I have no idea how often you ahve to adjust it. --> about 2-3x/week (see TA post b4, will now target a lower TA)
    FC = 1.6, Given a CYA of 99 (and it may be much higher) the FC is way too low. --> should I lower CYA or increase FC/TC ?
    ...
    CYA = 99, this is way too high. Even though it says 99 it may be much higher than that because the test only goes to 100, and the pool stores will report it at 99 because if it goes over 100 the only recommendation they have is to drain water and refill. --> pool store goes to 200 and I have seen reading just above last yr, how to adjust?
    Borates = 62, That's more than recommended. You should only have about 50 ppm. --> TY. That I can do easily. Again what significance does ADJUSTED Optimizer have here?
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  11. Back To Top    #11
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    You should lower CYA and raise FC. You don't want CYA higher than about 80. Lowering CYA will also lower Borates, though having borates a little high (but Borates still under 80) is fine. With CYA around 100 you want FC between 8 and 13 and never below 8.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  12. Back To Top    #12
    maxepr1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    716

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    KGG, I added Borates to my pool last year, and this year they are at the SAME level as last year! Haven't added any since the initial dose.
    40'x19' IG Diamond Brite 29K 4' Waterfall/Dive Rock FNS60 DE Inteliflo VS 2hp Whisperflo pumps Aqualogic(P4) SWG TF100 Tester


    Pool School, Pool Calculator,TFTestKits,

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Sounds like I have to drain a few inches to get CYA under control (lowered) first.
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  14. Back To Top    #14
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,337

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    To get the CYA where it should be your going to need to drain at least half your water and refill. I'd start with about half the water and then retest to see where you are.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  15. Back To Top    #15
    Lana537's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The Triangle, NC
    Posts
    242

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Do I remember correctly that the OP can more accurately test his CYA if he takes a pool water sample, dilutes it by half with tap water or distilled water (no CYA present) and then retests, multiplying the result by 2?

    Just a suggestion since there has to be such a huge drain and fill.

    Lana
    23,600 gallon, refurbished 1960's inground concrete, Jandy sand filter w Jandy 2 hp variable speed pump, Pool Pilot Digital SWCG+Chemtrol 2100+CO2 tank; PebbleTec White Pearl with 10% Cobalt Blue Dark Beadcrete by Olympic Pool Plastering, Georgia. Taylor K-2006 Test Kit; Aqua Check Salt test; LaMotte borates test, and Jack's Magic Sequest test kit; SparklyPoolitis level: extremely high.

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    I have enclosed our slightly older water test history, from April '11 to Feb '12... for comments.
    It looks like CYA bounces up and down, with a slightly increasing tendency, and we have never refilled the pool any more than an inch or so per week in the summer.

    Could there be consistency issues with the water testing at the pool store?
    (Note: testkit showed 50ppm TA last weekend, added 3lbs baking soda, 4 hrs later pool store shows 160 ppm TA ???)

    Again, what is the significance of the ADJUSTED TA and OPTIMIZER readings from the test? Which is more important?
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Lana537's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    The Triangle, NC
    Posts
    242

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Dear Huston,

    Once again, you will have to decide whether you are going to continue to use your pool store for testing and all guidance on the care of your pool/water/balance, OR whether you yourself are going to take control of caring for your pool. If you decide to do it yourself, you will need to do your own testing with a professional level test kit, and you will need to go study at Pool School (top right button on screen).

    In Pool School, second section Pool Chemistry, 5th item down shows your 3 options of test kits that cut the mustard. Nothing less will do.

    I do my own testing. I have gotten very good at it. I know my pool. My local pool store--a small operation with very good intentions and testing system with all the bells and whistles--simply doesn't have the accuracy that I do.

    Not for nothing, you could take a $100 or so gamble and buy your own test kit, have a go at it, and then decide.

    BTW, do you have an autofill and overflow on your pool?

    Baking soda raises TA and pH. Check out Pool Calculator, also in Pool School.

    Lana
    23,600 gallon, refurbished 1960's inground concrete, Jandy sand filter w Jandy 2 hp variable speed pump, Pool Pilot Digital SWCG+Chemtrol 2100+CO2 tank; PebbleTec White Pearl with 10% Cobalt Blue Dark Beadcrete by Olympic Pool Plastering, Georgia. Taylor K-2006 Test Kit; Aqua Check Salt test; LaMotte borates test, and Jack's Magic Sequest test kit; SparklyPoolitis level: extremely high.

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    I have purchased the Taylor Test kit and expect it to arrive shortly. I hope my own readings will improve over the test kit I have now.

    I have read, and read and read the pool school and ABC's on water chemistry for over a year now. I am not a chemist, and I still try to make sense of the deviations in weekly readings... being my own readings or those from the pool store.

    I do not have an autofill. We have a line to manually add tap water. And yes, there is an overflow.


    I always try to adjust TA first, wait an hour+ then address ph with muriatic acid.
    Chlorine has been good the past few months, I believe we had issues with the feeder being clogged last year, but now the tablest usage is somewhat consistent.

    Generally I am just not too confident to do 100% of my own and leave the pool store out. It would be nice to be able to verify my own readings and adjustments.
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

  19. Back To Top    #19
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,337

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    When you get your kit and start using it you'll gain confidence in your testing. You can take a sample to teh pool store if you want but be aware that the only test you're likely to agree on is the pH and even that won't be close sometime. You will learn to trust you own testing with time.

    I think you're going to find that the levels don't move around nearly aas much as they appear to now.

    On your TA/pH adjusting. You should adjust your pH and let your TA find it's happy place. You'll find that once the TA finds its happy place, you'll be adjusting the pH a lot less.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    NW Houston
    Posts
    36

    Re: Borates - Refreshing Qty Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    ... and let your TA find it's happy place. You'll find that once the TA finds its happy place, you'll be adjusting the pH a lot less.
    How do I let it find that elusive happy place itself ???
    Build Mar '11: 12400 Gal, Gunite/White Plaster, Chlorine Pool with Spa and 3 Waterfalls over natural (sealed) rock. All Pentair Equipment: chlorine feeder, pumps and cartridge filter.
    Gets nearly 100% sun, no leaves, LOTS of wind, and plenty of sand from ongoing development around us.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •