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Thread: Hooking up ozone?

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    Hooking up ozone?

    Split from here: hooking-up-ozone-t40423.html#p346881
    Moved to stop hijack of original thread. If you even think it might be a hijack, start your own thread!
    Also, because it is a controversial subject, it has been moved to the Agree to Disagree Forum. Butterfly


    hi Brian,

    just wondering why ozone generator manufacturers (and reps such as you) have not been posting anything on this forum. seems like most moderators here don't believe in the system but to say nothing just seems to support their claims. why?
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    Hi peachy,

    I typically only post replies to people having issues or questions about Ozone on this forum. Anything above those posts seems to get mistaken for a sales pitch and promptly moved or removed by the site admins. There are a few very adamant admins in some of these online forums that appear to have their own agendas (ie: chemical sales, alternative sanitizers, etc) who completely disregard the benefits of Ozone. I try very hard not to get into online confrontations with this type because it honestly will never end. I feel that we are better off spending time educating consumers than debating a handful of people who will never look at alternatives to their methods. You know the saying that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, right?

    Long story short, the most common call I get from consumers is "I had no idea what this did until it stopped working". That statement in itself proves that Ozone has it's place in the pool and spa market, providing that the "sales pitch" given to the consumer is accurate and truthful. Ozone performs very well for what it is meant to do, but it is NOT a stand alone system. It is meant to be a supplemental oxidizer, not a primary sanitizer as some companies claim.

    I hope this answers your question, and I can always be reached by phone or email if you have any specific questions or concerns.
    Brian Richardson

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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    Hi, Brian,

    I think the difficulty for most of us @ TFP is that, because ozone is not a stand alone (we both agree on that), what is the point in spending the money?

    I'm not positive, but I don't think anyone has ever laid out benefits that ozone would add that a chlorine-only method of sanitation doesn't already provide. If there are some, does the cost benefit/ration justify it's use?
    Dave S.
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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    hi brian,

    i would like to hear more about what you mentioned regarding the benefits that became more evident once they stopped using it. as for me i don't have a choice because my dad is adamant about using it and it's his house so it's going to be installed—period. i'm just deciding on what to purchase and there are tons of products out there and they all don't seem to have a base level of how many g/hr of ozone production will cover a specific pool size. some needs a booster pump, contact tank, destructor.... etc while some just need the generator and a venturi injector. it's all so confusing. plus now there's this outdoor pools don't really need ozonators. as for the cost/benefits issue... for me if the ozonator will improve the pool enough to actually notice it then it's worth it.
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    Quote Originally Posted by peachy
    for me if the ozonator will improve the pool enough to actually notice it then it's worth it.
    Not to beat a dead horse but...have we pointed you to this article on alternative-sanitizers-and-chemical-free-pools yet?
    A couple of excerpts from it:
    Ozone and UV have NO residual effect so again, a residual sanitizer is still needed.
    (note:a residual sanitizer would be chlorine, bromine, or biguanide)
    Ozone will destroy chlorine but will oxidize organics so it's a two edge sword. You will generally have higher chlorine consumption with ozone than without and it does not allow you to run lower chlorine levels because there is no residual effect from the ozone.
    From what I understand, the only place where ozone might get the nod in outdoor pools is where there is a very high bather load to water ratio (such as a hot tub or a crowded public pool).

    ...just my 2 cents...
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    Hi peachy,

    The first thing people notice is the elevated Chlorine demand, normally noticed because all of a sudden they have an algae bloom. The second most common comment is the loss of the water clarity. Ozone gives the water a sparkle and shimmer when it is operating properly, mostly from the Oxygenation byproduct of the Ozone generator.

    There are different installation options required for different Ozone Generators. We developed the suction side installation method 20 years ago because it gives you the most impact for the Ozone to work efficiently, as follows:

    1. The Ozone is introduced into the suction side of the pump, or on a dedicated suction side standpipe.
    2. This reduces the size of the Ozone bubbles by forcing them through the pump impeller.
    3. It forces this Ozone mixture into the water as the highest pressure in the system is between the pump and filter.
    4. The filter is used as a mixing vessel/contact chamber, allowing the Ozone adequate contact time to do the oxidizing. This will also extend your filter cleaning intervals as it degreases the filter in the process.
    5. The bubbles that you see at the returns of the pool have completed the oxidation process and have mostly reverted back to Oxygen at that point.

    By using this method you eliminate the need to install any venturi fittings, degas or mixing vessels, and bypass loops in the plumbing. This also treats the full stream of water through the pool plumbing, not just a bypass loop.

    I am not going to publicly argue the BBB method on this forum, it may work for some. Most pool owners will not subscribe to the BBB method for one reason, DAILY TESTING. Typical pool owners do not want to babysit their pools, they want to enjoy them without the daily work. There is a simple method of pool chemistry that we have promoted and proven for the past 30 years that we call the Menu Management Approach. Edit to remove link that contained marketing speak. PM sent. Butterfly

    This will give you the easiest, least maintenance water care with the least amount of chemicals.

    Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions.
    Brian Richardson

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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    BBB= Clear Sparkling Pool!!
    Menu Management Approach= Constant Pool Problems at HIGH PRICE!
    Once a pool is set-up with the BBB method little to know work needs to be done! Testing CL and PH daily or every other day is not that big a deal! Going to the pool store with a water sample and then being sold a load of **** is "Enjoying Your Pool" then buy an Ozone Generator!
    40'x19' IG Diamond Brite 29K 4' Waterfall/Dive Rock FNS60 DE Inteliflo VS 2hp Whisperflo pumps Aqualogic(P4) SWG TF100 Tester


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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    Like I said, I am not going to publicly argue on this forum. I am simply here to answer questions regarding Ozone. If you don't subscribe to the Ozone method that is up to you. I have seen the benefits, I know the product and I believe in it. You are entitled to your opinion and your own methods. I am not here to persuade people to any particular method over another, just to answer some specifics about Ozone.

    Have a nice day
    Brian Richardson

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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    As long as this thread remains civil, the discussion can continue here.
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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    Quote Originally Posted by peachy
    moderators here don't believe in the system
    I wouldn't put it that way. Ozone can be a valuable supporting player in the situations that require it. Ozone really shines in outdoor pools with high bather load. These are typically public pools, though the occasional private pool may qualify.

    Chlorine is both a sanitizer and an oxidizer. Ozone is only an oxidizer. You need some chlorine (or one of the other sanitizers) to effectively kill bacteria and viruses. In your typical residential pool the chlorine you already have will be enough to oxidize everything that needs oxidizing. But that isn't true when the bather load is higher. With enough people swimming, organic debris builds up more quickly than chlorine alone can keep up with. When that happens, some supplement to chlorine, such as ozone, UV, or MPS, is completely appropriate.

    I see this when I have a large pool party. With 20 people in the pool for two hours the water ends up a little cloudy, and chlorine alone takes a few days to catch up. If I wanted to have another 20 people over the very next day, chlorine alone wouldn't be enough. Of course for me personally, I don't have anyone swimming at all for the next five or six days after a large pool party, so I am happy to wait for the chlorine to catch up. But if you want 20 people in the pool two days in a row with any frequency, it is time to think about one of the products that helps oxidize more quickly.

    The typical residential pool owner is like me, only very rarely having more than a few people in the pool. For people like that, chlorine alone does the job more simply, with less total effort and less total cost.

    As long as you use chlorine as we recommend, the only time you will be able to detect any difference from having an ozone system is the day after having a pool party with lots of people in the water.
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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    thanks Jason. i think your postings are quite objective. thanks.
    Outdoor (60% shaded) 22,000 gals: Mosaic tiles (concrete grout), 011018 IntelliFlo VS, Clean & Clear Cartridge Filter CCP320 filter, IntelliBrite 5g LED, Prozone PZ2-4V, Blue Devil 8way Tester, Taylor FAS-DPD Chlorine Tester K-1515A (you need this period—OTO is pretty much useless)

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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    We have an ozonator and have had 20 little 8 year old girls in the pool for 6 hours at night and then the next morning for several more hours (after the slumber party). Water never did get cloudy. Only precautions were to add enough extra chlorine to raise the FC 2ppm over the high target for my CYA level. I think at the time it we had a CYA of 50 with a target FC of 4-6. We raised the FC to 8 before and after the party. We never saw cloudy water and no one got out to pee either. I would assume it's our ozonator that did a lot of the work. Everyone told us that our water would get really cloudy for a couple of days, but it wasn't even cloudy after the party. The only other thing I did was run my pump on a high speed for 24 hours to circulate the water well.
    20K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, IntelliFlo VS 3HP, 60sqft DE Plus 150gpm, Completed 10/2012, 320 Chlorinator (don't use), Del Eclipse 2 Ozone Gen w/MDV, Pentair Legend Platinum Cleaner, Pentair Mastertemp 400K BTU Nat.Gas Heater, 1.5HP WisperFlo Pump for: 4 Weepers, 2 Bubblers, 3 Aerators, 12" Raised Spa w/8' Neg Edge Spillway.

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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    Yes, the ozonator probably did help, but it's hard to know. A higher bather load doesn't automatically make the water cloudy. It depends how clean the people are getting in. Since it was at night, they probably didn't have sunscreen, did they? Sunscreen tends to cloud up water more than anything else; dirt would be next. Sweat itself isn't particularly dirty nor does it make the water cloudy. Dead skin cells can, but those are usually filtered out if the filter and circulation are good. Your running the filter continuously was wise.
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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    The upcoming Model Aquatic Pool Code lists both UV and Ozone as secondary Disinfection Systems (SDS's) and will require one or the other on wading pools, water activity pools, interactive water feature without sanding water, spray pads, and therapy pools. Further it is recommending that one or the other be installed on all other aquatic venues. While this is not meant to include home pools (more in line of commercial pools to which the code applies), it is instructive that this panel of experts would recommend them.

    In 2010, ozone was added to the FDA Model Food Code as an approved antimicrobial surface sanitizer. While this does not mean that the EPA recognizes it as a pool sanitizer, it does let you know that it does act as a powerful sanitizer (in the FDA food code, chlorine is needed at very high concentrations, over 100 ppm, to gain this designation). Further, with the CDC saying that chlorine on its own taking many hours to kill crypto, ozone can destroy crypto with a 3 log reduction (99.9%) in a single pass from a side stream.

    Ozone should not be used as a stand alone, primary sanitizer/ozidizer in a pool. But in conjunction with chlorine, it is a great option. Yes it CAN make your chlorine consumption go up, but that is only if you do not know what you are doing. Most research suggests that FC levels be kept at .3 - 1.0 ppm if a properly sized ozone system is used. the MAHC will permit this.

    With all of this said, it may be impractical for home pools to have a good ozone system, complete with the necessary two ORP systems. But lets stop talking down ozone. It can be great!
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    Re: Hooking up ozone?

    There is one and only one reason that ozone or UV are required on some pools in the CDC MAHC and that is to (slowly) inactivate the protozoan oocyst Cryptosporidium parvum. I say "slowly" because while there may be a 99.9% inactivation of water going through the UV or ozone path, it takes 7 turnovers of water to have 99.9% of it get exposed to such systems, so the speed of disinfection for the water taken as a whole is limited by the rate of circulation through the system. For that reason, it makes no sense to require 99.9% inactivation of the system used in the circulation path and 99% would only require 1% more time and even 90% would only require 11% more time so coagulation/filtration techniques might also be viable.

    Crypto is essentially a non-issue in residential pools. The problem in a public pool is that they are large pools and just one infected person with diarrhea can infect dozens or hundreds of people and due to the delay before symptoms, many people can become infected before the outbreak is detected. There are additional supplemental oxidation benefits to using ozone in high bather-load pools, but that is not why the CDC is including it in the MAHC.

    The MAHC (at least the initial versions I saw) does not allow for less than 1.0 ppm FC to be used even when ozone is present. It is DIN 19643 in Europe that allows for 0.2 to 0.5 ppm FC when ozone is used, but they allow 0.3 to 0.6 ppm FC when ozone is not used so ozone isn't cutting down the FC by very much. The following is from the Disinfection and Water Quality Module CODE section of the MAHC (I show chlorine, but there is also the option of using bromine at 3.0 PPM for pools and 6.0 PPM for spas):

    5.7.3.1.1.2 Minimum FAC concentrations shall be maintained at all times in all areas as follows:
    1. Swimming pools and all other aquatic venues not using cyanuric acid: 1.0 PPM (mg/L)
    2. Swimming pools and all other aquatic venues using cyanuric acid: 2.0 PPM (mg/L)
    3. Spas: 3.0 PPM (mg/L)
    If there is enough ozone being used to handle higher bather loads, then it most certainly has the chlorine demand go up. This is seen most clearly in residential spas where over and over again we see that a hot spa without ozone has a daily chlorine loss rate with no bather load of around 25% (it's lower at cooler temperatures) while with an ozonator present and turned on the loss is around 50% though depends on how long the ozonator is on. If the circulation pump and ozonator are on 24 hours, the losses are even greater, but more typically with on/off circulation pump and ozonator cycles, the chlorine loss is roughly doubled. On the other hand, if bather load is high, as with a spa used every day or two, then the ozone oxidizes bather waste and results in a lower chlorine demand, roughly cut in half.

    No one is talking down ozone, just giving the facts and concluding that for most outdoor residential pools it isn't necessary. It can be useful in indoor pools to reduce chloramines (though usually UV is used for that purpose) and it is useful in residential spas that are used every day or two since the higher bather load justifies the ozone since in that situation it cuts the chlorine demand down roughly in half.
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