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Thread: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on agp?

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    Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on agp?

    After our first half season of pool ownership, we learned that the standard equipment our pool came with is not going to work. We have a 24' sand filter and when we closed, we found out why we weren't getting a "clean" pool. There were rings of calcification and chunks of it all over in the sand. Many of you may recall my water woes from last year with my calcium hardness through the rough. Now I see the damage it can do.

    Since we can't change our top off water, we are going to have increasing hardness if we have to backwash, so we are going to get a cartridge filter. Since the calcium is going to gunk up the cartridge we would like to get a good sized one so we don't have to tear down mid season to clean it (we'll only be up may - sept, 4-5 daily swimmers). So I can get an ig filter right? Or what size should I get? Is 200sq feet enough? I don't want to go overboard either.

    Now for the pump. Egads, our pump cost us $10.00 a day to run. It was a 1.5 hp and was noisy as all get up. So my hubby wants to get something like the Intelliflo, but it is for ig pools only. We have our pool sort of with hard plumbing. We have flexible PVC to and from the pool, and between the pump and heater. The pump pad is about 5 feet from the pool. Some day we will hard pipe and bury the lines so we aren't stepping over them.

    Are ther any pool pumps we can get that will be quieter and much more efficient?

    Thanks

    Eta: correct post title...thanks auto correct.
    24' Round Diamond Star, 54" wall height, 200sq ft sta-rite cartridge filter
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    A 200 sqft filter is plenty big for that size pool.

    While an Intelliflo is a good pump, you should consider a 2-speed unless your power cost is about 20¢ per kwh.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Depends ... actually I have no idea although I see Bama has already commented.

    I was going to say the same, you could get most of the benefit on electricity costs just getting a 2-speed pump over the intelliflo unless you have high electric rates. May not even need a 1.5HP 2-speed.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    I agree with Bama, look into getting a 0.75 to 1.0 hp 2 speed. Last season I got a new 2 speed pump (see sig) and when it is on low, it is very quiet. Energy usage should be 1/4 of full speed, so combine the lower hp pump (therefore lower amps) and running at low speed and you should save a lot of dough. Only time mine is on high now is when using solar and when vacuuming.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    I looked back at some of your posts and could not find a CH issue that wasn't solvable.

    Unless I am missing something, your new pump and filter will only re-calcify and perhaps more quickly than sand.....not because of a filter/pump issue but because your pool water is not balanced.

    What was your CH last year that you are referring to?
    Dave S.
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    Melt In The Sun's Avatar
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Just a little note; buying a filter that doesn't backwash will make your calcium problem worse, not better. Backwashing replaces some water, which will keep your CH closer to that of the water source. With a cart filter you'll only be adding calcium and never removing it.
    11,200 gal, Pebble-Tec; Tristar 2-speed 1hp - Swimclear 325 ft2 cart - SWG - A & A in-floor cleaner - Heat pump. For the poolside cooking, a Yoder Wichita and a Big Steel Keg!
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    The problem is that our source water has high cal hardness (and iron). It seemed every time we back washed, we had to add more water, which required chemicals to pull out the calcium, which required more backwashing...get the picture? We are going to top off with trucked in water and see how often he can come out for topp offs. We can use our softened water if we're only talking a hundred gallons for evap and splash out.

    Why would a cartridge cause increased calcium hardness. Wouldn't we be more successful lowering cal hardness because we're not adding to it?

    I know we were at 325 for cal hardness at the end of the season and we had a ton of scaling on the walls and cover. You can even see it on the winter cover.

    Eta: I know you like numbers so here are our tftestkit numbers at close in september
    Fc 7
    Cc 0
    Tc 7
    Ph 7.4
    T/a 240
    Ch 330 (down from 410 2 weeks earlier)
    Cya 40
    Temp 72
    We like to keep the pool at 92 so scaling is likely.
    24' Round Diamond Star, 54" wall height, 200sq ft sta-rite cartridge filter
    Dynamo 1hp 2 speed pump, 199k Rheem milivolt heater
    Pool rover jr. - our best friend!
    Tf-100 plus borate strips and Taylor k1000.

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    What is the calcium hardness of you water[EDIT per below post, I mean tap water]? Mine is pretty high as well (I will check it tonight), but I never have build up in my sand filter. I am on a well.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Linen is referring to your tap water. Pretty good idea to know what the levels are in the water you are adding to the pool for reference.

    The cartridge does not "add" CH, but your are not replacing water after a backwash with tap water. The assumption is that your tap water CH is less than your pool water. Your pool water CH will go up due to evaporation. If you are backwashing, you should be replacing that high CH water with lower CH water. With a cartridge, you are never pumping out the high CH water to be replaced ... therefore your pool CH keeps going up due to evaporation.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle
    Linen is referring to your tap water. Pretty good idea to know what the levels are in the water you are adding to the pool for reference.
    jbliz has got my back I did indeed mean your tap water (make sure it hasn't run through you softener either).
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Calcium scale is not likely at all if you will control the parameters that contribute to it.

    CH - your CH is not at all high and will continue to reduce if you refill through the water softener

    pH - keep your pH low.....around 7.2

    TA - reduce your TA to around 80-100 by following the directions in the article in pool school. DO NOT try to reduce your TA any other way...it won't work.

    Control those parameters and you can keep your pool at 92 all summer and you won't get calcium scale.

    Clean your sand if you decide to do this, The calcium in your filter will re-dissolve and reenter your pool.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Using an in ground filter with an above ground pool, or the other way around, is fine. Switching in/above ground on the pump is not usually a good idea, though there can be exceptions. In-ground pumps are designed to move water through relatively short plumbing systems, while in-ground pumps are designed to move water through much longer pipes against much higher flow resistance. If the length of the pipes/hoses is too far off from what the pump is designed for the pump becomes very inefficient and tends to be loud, possibly overheat, and shorten the pumps lifetime.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Jason thank you for the advice. I suppose well look for a 2 speed agp pump. Filter issue depending on what consesus I can make given my water situation.

    So we could keep the sand filter if we got the TA under control and the ch reduced? I was using gallons of muratic acid to move the TA but it was a tuff one to get to budge. Our tap water outside the house is where the ch comes from. I can go dig out my paper work to find out exactly, bur I'm pretty sure it was around 380. If we use softened water, we don't have the ch problem but we do end up with a TA problem. Which is worse?

    My TA was 300 On July 20th when I got my kit. I was only able to drop it 60 "points" over the two months. I added 4 gallons of muratic acid in that time.

    Sorry this got off topic from an equipment decision, but I suppose they are related. A sand filter would be most economical cause I already have it, but the fear of adding water to my pool is terrible. I wont even let the kids make big splashes cause I don't want to topp off!
    24' Round Diamond Star, 54" wall height, 200sq ft sta-rite cartridge filter
    Dynamo 1hp 2 speed pump, 199k Rheem milivolt heater
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    I reiterate to do a full test of your tap water to definitively realize how good/bad it is to use for topping off your pool.

    Do you have your own test kit? [EDIT: just realized I read that you do ... nevermind]
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Ok, I found my test results of the tap water.
    Ph 8.2
    TA 205
    Ch 325
    Iron 3.5
    Tds 500
    Yes it was pool store data, but I get pretty close to the same, minus not being able to test for TdS (like it matters?)
    We don't have our outside water on yet so I cant test this year, but I know the water softener guy came up with similar results in October from the tap outside.
    24' Round Diamond Star, 54" wall height, 200sq ft sta-rite cartridge filter
    Dynamo 1hp 2 speed pump, 199k Rheem milivolt heater
    Pool rover jr. - our best friend!
    Tf-100 plus borate strips and Taylor k1000.

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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    I know I am being repetitive, but, based on the numbers you posted, filtering or a pump is not your issue....maintaining your pool water chemistry is.

    Replacing your pump and filter will give you the same results (or worse, as MITS accurately describes) as you have now.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Thanks for the input. I needed to make a decision soon and was feeling unsure. I think we will still get a two speed pump because 1.5 horses was a lot. We had a serious whirlpool going on not to mention the wasted electricity and pushing the water through the sand so hard.

    Hopefully the trucked in water and some winter settling will result in a head start in balanced water. I'm anxious to get the cover off, but with it getting close to freezing at night we will hold off for a couple more weeks.

    Ahhh, I can't wait to swim again...at least I'm more educated this year, armed with my test kit and lots of support from you all!
    24' Round Diamond Star, 54" wall height, 200sq ft sta-rite cartridge filter
    Dynamo 1hp 2 speed pump, 199k Rheem milivolt heater
    Pool rover jr. - our best friend!
    Tf-100 plus borate strips and Taylor k1000.

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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    What is the calcium hardness of you water[EDIT per below post, I mean tap water]? Mine is pretty high as well (I will check it tonight), but I never have build up in my sand filter. I am on a well.
    Just checked my fill water: CH 260 ppm, last time I checked it, it was 400 ppm (which is also where my pool was last fall), so I am happy tonight. As a side note, TA was 280 ppm and has been over 300 previously.

    Like duraleigh mentioned, you need to get your TA down. It took me about 2 weeks but I got mine down from 300 to 80, using the method in pool school, you should be able to do it too. My aeration method was to point my return up so it broke the surface and caused bubbles. I ran continuously on high for the 2 weeks and religiously lowered my ph to 7.2 whenever it got to 7.8 using MA. Once you get your TA down, you can deal with the high CH fill water without an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by MNPoolDreamer
    I think we will still get a two speed pump because 1.5 horses was a lot.
    That is a good move. Don't buy larger than a 1.0 hp (3/4 would be even better).

    Quote Originally Posted by MNPoolDreamer
    Hopefully the trucked in water and some winter settling will result in a head start in balanced water. I'm anxious to get the cover off, but with it getting close to freezing at night we will hold off for a couple more weeks.
    I strongly considering opening this weekend (Lino Lakes). My solar heating just might surprise me early this year.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Yes, no, or depends-ig equipment on adp?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Using an in ground filter with an above ground pool, or the other way around, is fine. Switching in/above ground on the pump is not usually a good idea, though there can be exceptions. In-ground pumps are designed to move water through relatively short plumbing systems, while in-ground pumps are designed to move water through much longer pipes against much higher flow resistance. If the length of the pipes/hoses is too far off from what the pump is designed for the pump becomes very inefficient and tends to be loud, possibly overheat, and shorten the pumps lifetime.
    Jason, I think that you must have had a long day when you wrote this up. (unless I have completely misunderstood you in the past). You state - In-ground pumps are designed to move water through relatively short plumbing systems I think that you meant - Above ground pumps are designed to move water through relatively short plumbing systems The way I understood everybody in the past is that a ABG pump should only be used on a ABG pool but an IG pump can be used on either. The OP is looking at moving her pump/filter in the future away from the pool and burying her plumbing. This would also be a reason that she should look at a IG pump. I will have to agree with you when you state "If the length of the pipes/hoses is too far off from what the pump is designed for the pump becomes very inefficient and tends to be loud, possibly overheat, and shorten the pumps lifetime." As my pump started screaming and not pumping as well as it used to at the end of last season. Time to put my free Superpump 2-sp 1.5 hp to work, (1st need to rebuild the pump and might as well put new bearings in)
    I am no expert, so please correct me if I am mistaken!
    Mike
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    Cloudy water not clearing up?

    Newbie here, well at least to opening. It was getting warm here so we jumped the gun and opened the pool. There was white "stuff" on the bottom of the pool when we pulled the cover off, but otherwise the water was crystal clear. I assume it was dead bugs, algae and maybe some calcium precipitated out (not sure if that is possible in cold water). I couldn't figure out how I was going to get the stuff off the bottom without having the pump up and running, so we hooked everything up and got it going.

    Here are my stats:
    Fc 6
    Cc 0
    Tc 6
    Ph 7.5
    TA 280
    Ch 380
    Cya - didn't test cause I didn't think it mattered right now.
    Temp - frigid. (the air temp was 26 the other day and it hasn't been warmer than 60 lately)

    Why is my water cloudy and not clearing up. The fc is holding so I don't think there are organics consuming it.
    I did add some metal out product due to the iron in the water.

    I just thought after two days of filtering I'd be clear by now...
    Any thoughts on what I should try?

    Thanks...oh and we might take the pump out over the weekend so the water will have to sit unmoving for a few days til we get the new pump installed.
    24' Round Diamond Star, 54" wall height, 200sq ft sta-rite cartridge filter
    Dynamo 1hp 2 speed pump, 199k Rheem milivolt heater
    Pool rover jr. - our best friend!
    Tf-100 plus borate strips and Taylor k1000.

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