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Thread: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

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    High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Ok so here's the situation....I have a CYA level of 250+. It has been this way for a while. I had a "professional" tell me "not to worry about it" a long time ago

    I have not tested for copper yet, however since my 7 year olds blond hair is turning green and any white bathing suits are ending up greenish in color, I am certain I have a copper problem. I do not have a heater so I'm certain that some cheap liquid algaecide from Leslies is the culprit. I'm also aware that the reason I needed so much algaecide is because my CYA was so high so my FC couldn't do it's job.

    I had a brown stain all over my liner. A neighbors pool guy came by and put a stain remover in that instantly began remove the stain, however within a few days it started coming back.

    So just by reading about CYA here, this is what I need to confront first since it means I have to drain and fill, right? And if that is true, this should solve all my problems as long as I stay away from algaecides with copper, right?

    If I am on the right track, I am wondering if I need to drain the entire pool to adjust the CYA or will draining half or more help lower it?

    My feeling is that, since the stain remover helped temporarily, I should treat the stain again then immediately drain the pool and refill which should solve all my problems. Am I on the right track?

    Any help from the experts here would be greatly appreciated.

    Note: It is a small 8000 gallon inground so draining and filling isn't a terrible expense if this helps anyones recomendations.
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    maxepr1's Avatar
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    What test kit do you have? Draining does lower CYA.
    40'x19' IG Diamond Brite 29K 4' Waterfall/Dive Rock FNS60 DE Inteliflo VS 2hp Whisperflo pumps Aqualogic(P4) SWG TF100 Tester


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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Yes, replacing water is a great idea. You do not want to completely drain an in-ground vinyl liner pool. If you do the liner can shift and either need to be reset or be destroyed. Always leave at least 1 foot of water in the shallow end.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Yes, replacing water is a great idea. You do not want to completely drain an in-ground vinyl liner pool. If you do the liner can shift and either need to be reset or be destroyed. Always leave at least 1 foot of water in the shallow end.
    Ok, thanks. So you think I should drain until there is about a foot in the shallow end and that should be enough to lower my CYA to an acceptable level?

    I'm assuming that will be close to half the water in my pool so is it as simple that by replacing that water, it will cut my CYA level by about half?

    I guess it will lower my copper level as well then, if needed I use a metal treatment from there?

    Thanks again for the reply.
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by maxepr1
    What test kit do you have? Draining does lower CYA.
    I am currently without on as my wife accidentally threw it away while cleaning the garage friday afternoon. It was a kit from Leslies. Not sure what model but I paid about $70 for it.

    I was going to look for recommendations for a new kit here.
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by kizerman
    So you think I should drain until there is about a foot in the shallow end and that should be enough to lower my CYA to an acceptable level?
    CYA levels over 100 are very difficult to measure with any precision. Depending on just how high your CYA level currently is, you may need to do this two or even three times to get things down to a reasonable level.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    maxepr1's Avatar
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    TF test kit or Taylor 2006
    40'x19' IG Diamond Brite 29K 4' Waterfall/Dive Rock FNS60 DE Inteliflo VS 2hp Whisperflo pumps Aqualogic(P4) SWG TF100 Tester


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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Quote Originally Posted by kizerman
    So you think I should drain until there is about a foot in the shallow end and that should be enough to lower my CYA to an acceptable level?
    CYA levels over 100 are very difficult to measure with any precision. Depending on just how high your CYA level currently is, you may need to do this two or even three times to get things down to a reasonable level.
    Ok. I will try it this week and post my results. Thanks for your time.
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by maxepr1
    TF test kit or Taylor 2006

    Ok. I will google those and check them out. Thanks.
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    One thing you want to watch out for is purple stains, which can form from copper combining with cyanurate to form copper cyanurate.

    http://www.theaquapedia.com/index.php?t ... _cyanurate

    What are your pH and TA (Total Alkalinity)? Since you are probably on tabs, I would suspect that they might be very low.

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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    I think OP's first action should be to do a partial drain and retest. That will probably lead to a second partial drain or perhaps a third to get CYA down to a manageable level.

    Once that's done, I would test for pH, TA etc. I wouldn't do so 'til then, however.
    Dave S.
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW
    One thing you want to watch out for is purple stains, which can form from copper combining with cyanurate to form copper cyanurate.

    http://www.theaquapedia.com/index.php?t ... _cyanurate

    What are your pH and TA (Total Alkalinity)? Since you are probably on tabs, I would suspect that they might be very low.
    My ph is 7.8 and TA is 100
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Ok, so as suggested I drained my pool this afternoon to about one foot in the shallow end. This was a lot more of the pools volume than I expected. Had to be 2/3 of the water. It is still filling and probably has a few hours to go.

    Before draining I tested the water with a new test kit....

    FC 2
    TAC 2
    ph 7.6
    TA 140
    HC 100
    CYA 150+
    Copper .25

    I am curious to see the CYA reading once full and don't want to do this again. I know my HC is low and TA is high but I am loaded up on supplies to get these levels right once the pool is full.

    I also bought a metal treatment for the copper. If there is still a trace amount after filling the pool back up do you guys think I should use the treatment? I identified the source of the copper and it will no longer be introduced to the pool water. It was in a mustard algaecide I was using late last summer into the fall.
    Will trace ammounts of copper necessitate a treatment or will it fade evaporate out ove time?

    Thanks all.
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Get the pool tested for copper once it is refilled. Someone help me here but I seem to remember .3ppm (yep POINT 3) as being the level at which copper becomes troublesome.

    We'll help you figure how to deal with it once you get the test result.

    Don't worry about your CH and TA....they're fine.

    How does your water look?
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    Get the pool tested for copper once it is refilled. Someone help me here but I seem to remember .3ppm (yep POINT 3) as being the level at which copper becomes troublesome.

    We'll help you figure how to deal with it once you get the test result.

    Don't worry about your CH and TA....they're fine.

    How does your water look?
    Well the water looked fine before draining however I had an organic liner stain (light brown) that I couldn't shake. I treated it with a stain remover last week that immediately cleared it up like magic, however it was slowly returning days later. I have a feeling this was because my high cya level was preventing the FC from handling it.

    Hopefully this drain and fill gets my cya into a manageable situation and the FC does it's job. The good news on the copper is I identified the source and just need to work on getting it under control now. Im also hoping this drain and fill lowers that copper reading so I don't need the metal treatment I bought.

    I'm looking forward to testing the cya in the AM and adjusting all the other levels to where they need to be. Thanks for the reply.
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    So I just about finished filling the pool last night and was able to run the pump overnight and put some chlorine in. I am topping the water off this morning and just tested it.

    FC 5
    TC 5
    PH 7.6
    TA 90
    HC 100
    CYA 120

    I am disappointed that the CYA did not come back lower. It must have been quite high. I know I will probably be advised to drain and fill again but I don't know it I have the heart to do that right now. My wife already thinks I'm crazy for doing it yesterday and I hate wasting that much water again.

    Is this manageable or do I have no other real option? Thanks guys.
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    It's extremely hard to maintain enough FC for that level of CYA. Besides you don't really know if it's actually higher than 120 because that's as high as the tests will go to. It could still be higher than that. I'd say drain half again and retest the CYA.

    I know it's hard to just dump that much water on the ground but once you've done it and see how eaasy it is to maintain the pool you'll be glad you did.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    It's extremely hard to maintain enough FC for that level of CYA. Besides you don't really know if it's actually higher than 120 because that's as high as the tests will go to. It could still be higher than that. I'd say drain half again and retest the CYA.

    I know it's hard to just dump that much water on the ground but once you've done it and see how eaasy it is to maintain the pool you'll be glad you did.
    I know it probably what I will end up doing but I'm having trouble making myself do it.

    Why would evaporation and refilling with fresh water not eventually drop the CYA? Is it just too high a level to wait for that to occur?
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    CYA doesn't evaporate. There are only two reliable ways to get rid of it. Drain & refill and RO (reverse osmosis) treatment. Splashout and backwash will get rid of a little of it over time but that usually is a very slow process and it could take years to get it down that way.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: High CYA and most likely copper....I need help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    CYA doesn't evaporate. There are only two reliable ways to get rid of it. Drain & refill and RO (reverse osmosis) treatment. Splashout and backwash will get rid of a little of it over time but that usually is a very slow process and it could take years to get it down that way.
    That's what I figured, so drain and fill #2 is underway
    8000 gallon outdoor inground vinyl. Sand filter, Hayward 1HP.

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