Need help re-plumbing!

[DMoore]

I purchased my new house last fall. Good news, it has a pool. :-D Bad news it has a leak when the pump runs. The pool is plumbed with 1 1/2" Sch. 40 flex. A local pool restorer has convinced me that I should redo the lines. So, I rent a trencher and have at it! I thought I had a good idea of what needed to be done, that is until I decided to look into pipe sizing on pools etc. and found this site. I am looking for advice on pipe sizing, sch. 40 or sch. 80 pipe, is my filter big enough, pump big enough, too big? I plan on running "home runs" back to the pad on all lines. Thanks in advance for any and all help!

 

[DMoore]

Some Additional Pics!

 

[DMoore]

More Pics!

 

[duraleigh]

Welcome to the forum. :lol: Tell us the size of your pool. That's essential. Then, perhaps a larger view of your equipment pad. Once you post that, I would suggest getting your pipes in the ground. The sizing will not be at all difficult....rigid sched 40 is perfectly adequate for residential pools.

Once the pipes get worked out, you can decide on your equipment.

 

[DMoore]

The pool is a Lazy "L". Its 18' x 42'. Approx. 9' deep in the deep end and 42" in the shallow end. I attached a pdf in my original post that shows the basics of the pool that I did in AutoCad. It has all the distances of my runs utilizing my "new" trenches on it as well. I didn't try to open it from the site though. As far as how many gallons, I have no idea. I'm guessing 30,000???? I plan on re-doing the equipment pad completely. The pad that everything is sitting on now will remain, but all the new piping will be stubbed out in front of it and a new additional pad will be poured. The filter is and Hayward DE style EC75, and the pump is Hayward as well and relatively new. I will get new pics tonight and get them posted! Additional questions, after placing the pipe in the trenches, do I need to then fill the trenches with some pea gravel or just dirt? Should I use "sweep 90's? I'm sure there will be more! Thanks for the Help!!!

 

[duraleigh]

Assuming your 30k estimate is close (probably is) then I would suggest 2" lines from the skimmers and 1.5" pressure side lines.

How many skimmers and returns do you have and how are they laid out?

burying the lines in dirt is fine unless you plan on putting a masonry surface (decking, etc.) over the top and then you might put some rock in that section.

 

[DMoore]

The basic layout is in PDF form in the original post. I'm not sure how to put it in a format that doesn't have to be opened or downloaded?! I drew it in Autocad.

 

[DMoore]

There are two Skimmers, one is 115' from the pad, the other is 40' from the pad. There is a a bottom drain/suction, it is about 50' from the pad piping wise. There are 2 returns. One is about 58' from the pad and the other is about 75' from the pad.

 

[Bama Rambler]

I'm a little different than Dave (if a Dave can be different than a Dave) Since you're redoing it anyway I'd run 2½" or 3" everywhere and reduce down at the final element (skimmer, return, pump, etc) That may be overkill but it'll help the long runs. I'd run at least 2" if 3" is hard to find or not in the budget.

 

[Melt In The Sun]

With runs that long, I think that using larger pipe (say 2.5" suction and 2" return) would be worth the small cost increase. Is the bottom drain run through one of the skimmers, or is it a separate line back to the pad?

Never mind, just read what Bama said...

 

[duraleigh]

Sorry, I didn't see your pdf until you pointed it out to me TWICE. I may have to adjust my medicine dosage just a bit.

mas985 will perhaps chime in as the authority on piping but my personal experience with any pipe larger than 2" is it becomes a PITA really quick. There's a lot of variables in calculating your overall savings but I am personally not very good at working with anything larger than 2" pipe.

With a 70-80 gpm pump, the reduced head you would gain may or may not get you a payback in a reasonable time period.

Then again, it is my personal reluctance not to deal with larger pipe that would be my biggest drawback.

 

[harleysilo]

 

[DMoore]

Guys,
Thanks for all the info. Harleysilo, thanks for the pdf conversion!

I had 360' of sch. 80 delivered yesterday, man it just looks too small! I think it will all go back and at least go with 2" all around in sch. 40 hard. I agree that 2 1/2" may get too much for me to handle?! I will take more pics tonight of the pool and pad if it will help. So, more questions...

1) Sweep 90'S or just regular? The diagram shows all the transitions, is it worth it to use sweep 90's?

2) Do I need to pay attention to pipe fall in the trenches? Not gravity moving the water, does it matter?

3) Do I need to use 2" between the pump, filter and heater as well?

4) Can I "stack" the pipe in the trenches or should I have a bit of gravel or dirt between them?

 

[mas985]

I wouldn't use schedule 80, it is more restrictive than schedule 40 and harder to find pool fittings.

1) It usually isn't worth the effort and/or cost of sweep 90s. If you are concerned about plumbing head loss, you get a lot more bang from your buck by simply up sizing the pipe. But since you will have three suction lines and 2 return lines, sticking with 2" lines and standard fittings will be probably good enough. Having 3x2" suction lines is equivalent to a single 3" line and having 2 2" lines is equivalent to a single 2.5" line.

2) No, although it could make winterizing easier.

3) I would but if it is too much trouble, then it wouldn't hurt that much either.

4) That is a good question. Normally the pipes are laid side by side in a wider trench. I haven't heard of anyone doing that and my first instinct is that would increase the likelihood of a crushed pipe.

As far as your filter, it just barely meets the new APSP-15 requirements but if you wanted to go larger that is always an option. The pump looks like it might be a 1 HP up rated SuperPump and if so, that is a good size for the pool. The only option might be to convert it to a two speed sometime in the future if your electrical rates are high.

 

[DMoore]

Thank you for the extra info! I can take a little time and widen the trenches a bit. I was lucky to get that trencher in the places I did! Regarding the pump, it is a super pump. Can the motor just be changed out with a 2 speed version? Being an Electrical controls eng. I was thinking of replacing the motor with a 230 VAC 3ph version (if available) and putting a Variable Freq. drive on it, but I wasn't sure it could be done with that pump combination? Probably a topic for a different thread. Again, thank you all!

 

[mas985]

Yes to covert to a two speed, just a motor swap is required. That particular pump comes in a two speed version so it wouldn't be hard to find a motor. Just make sure you get a new seal kit.

As for a 3-phase with a VFD, I would not recommend that route as you may end up spending more than what it costs to buy a simple VS pump. In order to build one properly, the motor needs to be inverter rated, you need to use shielded cables designed specifically for a VFD and the VFD needs to be housed in a NEMA enclosure. I have seem people try this not knowing what is involved to make everything work reliably and most fail. Add to that the fact that in many cases, those with moderate electrical rates will probably have lower lifetime cost with a two speed.

 

[CraigMW]

How will you access plumbing for the main drain? If you are really planning on redoing the main drain plumbing, it would be a good time to bring this up to standard code, meaning that you put in two separate drain covers and plumbing on a T to the existing plumbing line. At a minimum, get SVRS/VGB compliant drain covers if you can. Also, avoid that PVC flex pipe, as it seems to be sensitive to crushing. Standard schedule 40 2" PVC would probably work best.

It's good to see you have two skimmers, but I wonder how well the current returns circulate the water around the pool. A third return might be nice to get circular flow of the surface water to push leaves, etc in to the skimmers. Eyeball fittings for the returns should be added if not present so that you can aim the surface flow to clockwise (or better yet, counterclockwise to prevent leaves building up near the shallow end stairs). Also, you might add a cleaner line. This could be plumbed either for suction or vacuum depending on the system you purchase later. It's nice to be able to run the cleaner on its own independent line and keeps the deck tidy if you go that route.

 

[DMoore]

Ahh yes the main drain. Well, for now, I am going to have to connect to the old (which I trenched thru BTW) with my new line. Ideal, absolutely not., but will have to do until I can afford to re-liner the pool. Probably next year. I will replace that line then. I plan doing some other renovations as well like removing the stairs at the deep end and possibly increasing the size of the shallow end and decreasing the depth a bit.

We have a nice breeze that blows most of the time from the deep to shallow end. I think the shallow end skimmer will work great as I have witnessed the breeze at work. I question the deep end skimmer though. I have never seen the pool in operation. I spent most of late fall cleaning two years of leaves and Crud out of it and getting it clear with the help of a friends DE filter we set up on the side of the pool. The pool does have eyeballs on the returns. I am unfamiliar with the term "cleaner line". Thanks for the advice and input!

 

[mas985]

IMHO, I think skimmers work better with an opposite return pointed directly at the skimmer which your setup is perfect for so I wouldn't change a thing. The shallow end eyeball can directed at the opposing skimmer.

 

[CraigMW]

I think you might want to keep those deep end stairs in there because my understanding is that you need at least a ledge in the deep end so that swimmers can exit the deep end. So, unless you plan to put a ladder in, it makes the most sense to leave them in, or at least put in some form of ledge for deep end egress. Bummer about the trencher going through the drain line, but I agree that you can probably just replace the line from where the pipe was damaged. I'm always nervous about trenching given all of the plumbing in the ground in our yard (esp. the gas line and 60A/220V line that is dedicated to the pool equipment). I don't think you will need to main drain line too much. In our case, the line to the drain is rarely used.

As for the term "cleaner line," I meant that if you want to install a dedicated cleaner like a Polaris or Zodiac, it's really nice to have an extra pipe plumbed to the side wall of the pool where you can hook the cleaner into. There are several different kinds, primarily vacuum, pressure side or robotic. The former is the cheapest way to go typically. We have a Zodiac MX8 that is suction side and we really like it. It is plumbed into the suction manifold of the main pump, with a three way valve controlling suction between the skimmer and the dedicated vacuum "cleaner line." As I've added a leaf catcher inline with the automatic cleaner, the only maintenance is removing leaves and debris from the basket in the leaf catcher once every week or two. Alternatively, pressure side cleaners typically require a "booster pump" that is plumbed with the return of that pump driving the pressure side "cleaner line." This option is more expensive due to the booster pump. But, you could in theory use the same cleaner line plumbed either for vacuum or pressure type cleaners. It's your choice once you have run a cleaner line to the pool. It's not an absolute necessity, but it can really help reduce your time maintaining the pool. Lastly, there are robotic cleaners, but these are expensive. However, they do not use a dedicated cleaner line, so if you forgo adding this additional plumbing, you could still equip the pool with an automatic cleaner. You might check out the Automatic Cleaner forum for more details.