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Thread: My new agp project

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    My new agp project

    I am new to TFP and just wanted to show off my new pool. This pool replaced a 18x48 frame set pool, I added the sand filter to the frameset pool 2 years ago and kept it for the new pool. I hard piped the pool and filter station to keep the electric over 15' fromthe pool so I didn't have to install a ground field around the pool. I only grounded the motor at the filter station with one ground rod. I couldn't believe the increased flow over the corugated hoses I was using. I guess that the corugation created a lot of turbulance and reduced the flow. The bypass valve for the solar panels will be automated as soon as I can collect the parts needed and write the code for the plc controller. I am using the tablet feeder as I have a great source for the tabs, and will be using the bbb method described here at TFP. BBB? I guess that I really using PBB, PBB wow that is close to PBR!!! Great idea for Saturday! I realy want to backfill around the pool, Is this a good or bad idea? If not, why? The fence was to satisfy the insurance company. I also have six, 2'x20' solar panels that will lay where the dirt pile is behind the pool. I thought about mounting on the roof, but the roof is 12/12 pitch, my punp doesn't really have the head to pump to the top panel, and the roof is one year old and I don't want to damage it. I have read in the forum of people cuttting the solar blanket to make it easier to handle, how is it being cut? into strips or pie cut? Tia to everyone for there info.

    Eric S.




    27' x 54" Cameo by Backyard Leisure (Wilbar) 17,200 gallon
    Hayward S180T filter with a 1.5hp pump
    Zodiac Barracuda Ranger vacuum
    GLI fencing around top rail
    All piping hard piped (that is what I do far a living!)
    six 2'x20' solar panels

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    Re: My new agp project

    Very nice!

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    duraleigh's Avatar
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    Re: My new agp project

    Welcome to the forum. Nice pool, Eric, and nice work, too.

    There is quite a bit of discussion on the forum on backfilling AGP's so you might search some of the threads. What I take away from reading them briefly is that it is frequently done but some common sense precautions (drainage) need to be in place.

    I don't have a solar cover anymore, but when I did, I simply cut it into sections that made it easy for me to work with. Other round pool owners will have better advice than me on that.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: My new agp project

    Quote Originally Posted by esdd
    I am new to TFP and just wanted to show off my new pool.
    And a nice pool it is!

    Quote Originally Posted by esdd
    I hard piped the pool and filter station to keep the electric over 15' from the pool so I didn't have to install a ground field around the pool. I only grounded the motor at the filter station with one ground rod..
    This statement bothers me immensely. If you're talking about grounding then it's fine. However, if you're meaning bonding then you must have a bonding conductor loop around the pool attached to the wall in at least four(4) places, especially since it's a metal walled pool. This should be fixed immediately. It doesn't look like you have any metal around the pool other than the wall so you only need to connect the bonding conductor to the wall in four places and then run it to the pump. I hate to harp on it, but it really needs to be fixed. If you already have this covered then please disregard this rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by esdd
    The bypass valve for the solar panels will be automated as soon as I can collect the parts needed and write the code for the plc controller..
    Which PLC are you using? Being an old PLC guy myself I'm always interested in controlling these things with a PLC.

    Quote Originally Posted by esdd
    I have read in the forum of people cutting the solar blanket to make it easier to handle, how is it being cut? into strips or pie cut? TIA to everyone for there info...
    I use a cover and have a reel. I really suggest using a reel. You don't have to cut the cover and it's easily put on and removed. I bought a 28' reel so I could set it on posts outside the pool wall.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: My new agp project

    The punp is bonded at the filter station, the pool is not bonded. The top rail, the uprights, and the bottom track are all resin, the wall is resin over metal. The nec requires a bonding ring around the pool with a ground rod every 10 feet and all metal parts of the pool connected in at least four places, depending on interpertation of the code all connections should be cadwelded. If the pool is installed more than 10 feet away from an electric source no bonding field is required. With all the resin parts of this pool what is the point of bonding anyway. The pump is bonded to a 8' coper clad rod and also connected to the rebar in the homes foundation. I feel that this pool is sufficently bonded or grounded.

    The plc I am using is an Allen Bradley SCL50, I have a binary input card, a binary output card, an analog io, an analog output card, and the power supply. This came from a customer who was scrapping equipment, the best kind.....FREE! The programming will be via AB's RS-logix. I have a Belimo amb24-3 actuator to turn the valve, I plan to install temp thermisters on the supply from the pump, on the return from the solar panels, and on the return from into the pool. I will use and ambient temp sensor and a photocell as well. I plan on activating the pump at four hour intervals, checking for heat demand (discharge temp from the pump), totaling runtime in a 24 hour rolling window, monitoring the return temp from the solar panels and the photocell to determine avilability. The mixed water temp is to maintain a minimum of 3 degrees of temp rise.

    Programmed sequence will be something simular to this:

    1) Pump on for 15 minutes every 4 hours
    2) check temp of water from pump and compare to setpoint to determine heat demand
    3) check photocell for adequate sun, and ambient sensor for outdoor temp
    4) if heat demand is present, photocell good and ambient temp is adequate then heating will activate
    5) if no heat demand is present or heat not available then check runtime total and compare over the last 24 hours.
    6) if runtime exceeds time required for filtering then pump off
    7) if heat demand is present and heat available then controll bypass valve to maintain 3 degrees or greater temp rise above pump discharge.

    I know that this is overkill but the only things I have to buy will be the sensors and the photocell. Free beats 3 to 6 hundred for a controller from the pool companies. I work in the building automation field and have my master electrician and journeyman hvac licenses, this is simple to some of the automation projects I work with. The only real hurdle I have is the actuator is floating point, and I only have binary or analog outputs. I am thinking of some sort of pulse with modulation with the binaries, I really dont want to buy a floating point card for the plc. I will have points left for other ideas, mabey lighting?
    27' x 54" Cameo by Backyard Leisure (Wilbar) 17,200 gallon
    Hayward S180T filter with a 1.5hp pump
    Zodiac Barracuda Ranger vacuum
    GLI fencing around top rail
    All piping hard piped (that is what I do far a living!)
    six 2'x20' solar panels

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: My new agp project

    Actually the NEC in the U.S. doesn't require grounding the bond loop at all. They do allow it, but not require it. By driving ground rod(s) you can actually induce more problems than you fix on a bond loop. However, that's rare in most of the U.S..

    The code specifically lists eight(8) ways to connect bonding conductors. Exothermic welding is #4. Mechanical connectors are the most common. They must require a tool for removal (i.e. no wirenuts).

    Having said all that, it sounds like you're ok, but I'd run the bond loop to the pool wall anyway.


    It sounds like you're gonna have a nice little project there. Let us know how it turns out. I like the way you've thought about it. I'd probably just use discrete outputs to open or close the valve all the way, but since you have analogs you might as well see if it's feasible to maintain a differential temp. I'm always interested in homebrewed automation, especially using PLC's. I've programmed about every brand out there.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: My new agp project

    The goofy local code requires a "Grounding Field" around the perimeter of a swimming pool if any electrical device inexcess of 30 volts exists within 10 feet of the interior wall. The bonding loop serves as this grounding field if ground rods are driven evenly around the perimeter of the pool at equal distances no closer than 8 feet an no further apart than 11 feet. The water bond is not mentioned the only other requirement is to attach the ground field to the pool walls,shell, or uninsulated rebar. There is an exception for resin coated rebar, non-metalic pool shell, or metal wall of an above ground pool that is completely encapsulated by resin, plastic or simular material for corrosion resistance. The only point to attach a bonding loop per the NEC is the water bond, which I had not considered. After contacting the electrical inspector and several electrical supply houses as well as both of the major pool parts suppliers no-one had even heard of an approved water bonding devices. I am going to create the water bond at the pump station by using a 1.5 inch stainless shell from a spa heaterand connecting to the same ground rod as the pump. The local inspector says that since the pool is all resin no bonding loop is required. Believe it or not the local inspector requires all of the conductors leaving a panel box to be installed in a riser to 2 inches above the bottom of the floor joists or rafters above. This is a direct violation of the bundling rule in the NEC.
    27' x 54" Cameo by Backyard Leisure (Wilbar) 17,200 gallon
    Hayward S180T filter with a 1.5hp pump
    Zodiac Barracuda Ranger vacuum
    GLI fencing around top rail
    All piping hard piped (that is what I do far a living!)
    six 2'x20' solar panels

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: My new agp project

    That's some crazy stuff but whatcha gonna do??
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: My new agp project

    Do you like having the pool fence attached to the pool? I have ordered one, but I am contemplating sending it back because I am thinking it is gonna be hard to clean the pool and add chemicals and stuff if I have to reach over that fence. Would love to know what your experience has been. Also, is it sturdy?
    27' x 54" AG with Hayward Power-Flo Matrix 1 HP 2-speed pump and 21" sand filter
    South Georgia

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    Re: My new agp project

    If I had to do this over I would have bought the 8ft sections of white vinyl fence from lowes along with the 5 x5 vinyl posts and caps. The fence came from the vendor missing pieces and my opinion is that it is of moderate quality. Other than the issues with the fence directly is the fact that it makes the installation and removal of a solar blanket difficult. With the fencing from Lowes I would have put another gate opposite the one on the deck to make removal of a blanket easier. The cost of the fence from lowes would have been about double the cost of the fence attached to the pool. The best benefit of this fence is that it helps to retain toys and flats left in the pool.

    Hope this helps.

    Eric
    27' x 54" Cameo by Backyard Leisure (Wilbar) 17,200 gallon
    Hayward S180T filter with a 1.5hp pump
    Zodiac Barracuda Ranger vacuum
    GLI fencing around top rail
    All piping hard piped (that is what I do far a living!)
    six 2'x20' solar panels

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    Re: My new agp project

    My pool is also a 27'x54" Wilbar- the Heritage(looks just like yours)- but I calculate my water at 19,300 gal using the pool calculator. How did you make your calculations? Because I don't want to be off on this, as it affects how I estimate my chemicals.
    27' x 54" AG with Hayward Power-Flo Matrix 1 HP 2-speed pump and 21" sand filter
    South Georgia

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    redhdgirl417's Avatar
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    Re: My new agp project

    Quote Originally Posted by southgaamy
    My pool is also a 27'x54" Wilbar- the Heritage(looks just like yours)- but I calculate my water at 19,300 gal using the pool calculator. How did you make your calculations? Because I don't want to be off on this, as it affects how I estimate my chemicals.
    Looks like you're using the actual wall height to calculate total water volume and he is using the actual water height, a bit over 4ft, to calculate his (I do this also).
    13,900gal 24'x52" Backyard Leisure Heritage AGP
    20ml All Swirl Flat Liner
    Pentair 1.5hp Pump and 150# Sand Filter System
    Smart Step Ladder w/Smart Light
    TF100 test kit, BBB Baby!

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    Re: My new agp project

    Yep, 17200 gallons based on 48" average depth.
    27' x 54" Cameo by Backyard Leisure (Wilbar) 17,200 gallon
    Hayward S180T filter with a 1.5hp pump
    Zodiac Barracuda Ranger vacuum
    GLI fencing around top rail
    All piping hard piped (that is what I do far a living!)
    six 2'x20' solar panels

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