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Thread: Money Pit, Part 2 - We really need to renovate!

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    Money Pit, Part 2 - We really need to renovate!

    I'm hoping to gather opinions and ideas about the best way to proceed with our money pit, because we're getting closer to having our hand forced with a liner failure. I know this is a lot of info; I'd be ever so grateful for any input. We've been thinking about all this stuff for the past two years; I have about a million TFP threads bookmarked and I have information overload at this point. I'd love to choose and move on!!!

    Prior pertinent threads:

    yet-another-new-pool-owner-uh-oh-no-suction-t16238.html

    This one has pictures of our coping and liner track.

    money-pit-part-1-the-leak-update-new-weird-leak-t30788-20.html


    Facts:

    Pool age - early 70's probably, so around 40 years

    Construction type and style - concrete block; some type of soft bottom; constant slope from shallow to deep, with completely vertical walls

    Vinyl liner is shot - we could perhaps limp through another season, if the overbaked corner holds up.

    Coping - 1x10 wood covered with white vinyl and extending over the decking

    Liner track - appears to be horizontally mounted

    Concrete decking - could be salvaged. Butts up to concrete block pool walls UNDER the vinyl-covered wood coping. One corner has sunk about 2" below the wood coping; could presumably be mud-jacked

    Plumbing and equipment - underground plumbing is original; had a leak under concrete repaired last year. Pad is right under the only family room window. Plumbing is very simple: one skimmer line in to pump/filter, one line out to 2 returns. No heater, no solar, no chlorinator.


    Initial renovation quote, which included everything we possibly considered. I was a bit surprised at the price of some of the items, though.

    Liner = a bit under $4000 - 36x18 rectangle, constant slope, no 'tile' border, nothing but 4 vertical walls, a floor, 1 skimmer and 2 returns

    Raise pool floor=$6500; we have vertical walls, so changing the floor should only involve resloping from shallow to deep; i.e. there is no traditional hopper with edges sloping in from the side walls

    Precast concrete coping = a bit under $6000 - by my calcs around $55/lin ft

    Alumnimum coping alternative = a bit under $1000

    Decking= $6000 to remove and replace 3' around pool - by my calcs, around $16/sq ft

    Move existing equipment and replumb = $6000


    Desires, relatively in this order:

    Money - balancing functional and appearance with common sense. The first quote came in 10% under the cost of an entire new pool!

    Change pool floor configuration - it's a constant slope; we'd love to have a traditional shallow end with a deeper slope to the deep end, but $6500????

    Coping flush with deck - I presume that this requires removing all decking. Theoretically, if we could cut the decking back to accommodate precast coping at about 1' wide, we could fit new coping in. However, this would also require cutting down the pool walls to get new coping flush with that existing deck. Doesn't seem within the realm of possibility.

    Coping material - precast concrete coping was about 6x the price of aluminum coping. I really don't want aluminum; I'd take cantilevered over that. Is cantilevered somewhere between precast and aluminum?

    More decking - if we salvage existing decking, we'll obviously have 2 different kinds of decking, so DIY pavers may be the best choice for extra decking as opposed to trying to match concrete. If we replace existing decking, we can have all the concrete we want at $6/sq ft.

    Move pool pad and replump - for $6000, I'll listen to the pump!!!!!!!


    Questions:

    1) How feasible is it to DIY precast concrete coping?

    2) Is it possible that the decking up against the concrete block walls is part of the pool walls' support system?

    3) If we choose to live with most of what we have, we still really need to do something with the coping. Is there any kind of coping product or process we could use that would ride on the pool wall and over the existing decking? The pool wall is really only as wide as concrete blocks and is level with the decking under the existing wood coping.

    3a) If all else fails, does anyone recognize the white vinyl stuff that covers the wood coping? I found something that looks similar from SRSmith, but I'm not sure if that's what we have.
    http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/poolsupp ... 423160.htm

    4) Pool mudjacking - I remember ConcreteJack's thread about how it is possible around a pool, but I wonder how it works around the plumbing? Can it damage the plumbing?


    And the biggest question: is it possible to do this in 2 phases, months or years apart: A) redo floor slope and replace liner, and B) replace coping/decking and move equipment? My concern is that if we replace the liner, but leave the existing coping, we will be forced into a particular type of track that will prevent us from certain coping choices later. If we can chose a track that will work now, and will allow aluminum, cantilever, or precast coping in the future, then that's the one I want to chose!

    Whew! Thank you for reading all this. Anything anyone has to share would be most appreciated!!!

    Amy
    18x36 26.6k IG vinyl liner over concrete or concrete blocks - liner is slipped-out in spots, but not moving; constant slope from 3.5' to 8'; 1 shallow skimmer/2 deep-end eyeball returns; Pentair multi-port valve; 2010 Triton Sand filter TR60 (replaced identical 1994 model); Sta-Rite Dura-Glas Up-rated P2RA5E-124L 5" pump w/ AO Smith Centurian B848 switchless motor 1hp; (removed-TeledyneLaars LaarsLite heater); (removed-Sun Auto. Pool Chlorinator); (replaced-Hayward Vari-flo valve SP0710x-40)

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Money Pit, Part 2 - We really need to renovate!

    1) It can be fairly heavy work, but it isn't too bad as long as you have a little masonry experience.
    2) Possible, though it seem rather unlikely. Cinder block needs something behind it to help it hold against water pressure. No one sane would use the deck for that purpose, but we see some strange things now and then.
    3) Sure, there are several ways to do it. All of them involve some work though, and the complexity depends on exactly how the old wall is finished off at the top. Using wood there is unusual, and makes me wonder why they did that when everything else was masonry.
    4) It can damage the plumbing, though that is unusual. It all depends on where the plumbing is. You don't want to be moving concrete that has plumbing embedded in it. Usually the plumbing is well below the deck and there isn't a problem.

    If you mount the liner track along the top edge of the wall, you can redo the floor and liner without limiting yourself too much in how you do the coping later. Doing it all together is easier of course, but splitting it up doesn't sound too bad. I suppose it kind of depends on what shape the existing coping and top of the wall are in. You need something solid to attach the track to. If things are in good enough shape to do that, you can split it up with only a few mostly cosmetic limitations on how the liner coping joint looks in the end.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Money Pit, Part 2 - We really need to renovate!

    Thank you so much for responding. I've been trying to catch up with my husband to discuss all this some more.

    1) Re: installing precast coping - We have absolutely no experience. I'm guessing the issue is installing the coping in a nice, flush, even manner.

    2) Re: Decking possibly supporting concrete walls - Considering everything else that's crazy about this house, I often feel no one sane was involved anywhere! So, I worry.

    3) Re: Replace existing ride-on-top coping - currently, it appears that there must be bolts embedded in the concrete block walls, as the 1x10s have bolt ends with nuts in recessed circles under the white vinyl. If we cut them off, what type of coping can go over the concrete block and decking? I know there's the big white aluminum stuff (deck-mount?http://coping.cinderellainc.com/deckmount.asp); I assume you screw through that center track; I'd have to check if that track lines up with anything solid. My guess is that it would be over the concrete block, making attachment difficult.

    4) Re: Mudjacking - I think we're safe here, then, as I don't believe the piping is embedded.


    When you say "mount the liner track along the top edge of the wall", are you referring to vertically mountedhttp://coping.cinderellainc.com/vertical.asp? That's what I was thinking, as it seems that would separate the track from the coping. I would think horizontally mounted trackhttp://coping.cinderellainc.com/horizontal.asp might make installing cantilevered coping more difficult later. Right now, we have horizontally mounted track that fits into a routed edge of the wood, or at least seems to.

    I realize the bids are probably high because this is a pool builder who wants bigger jobs. $10,000 seems crazy high to redo the liner and the slope of the floor. We're just trying to go from a rectangular slope to a rectangular deep end pool. There is no hopper, just concrete block walls and a straight slope from the shallow end.

    I will try to get some pictures together this weekend. It's been raining for a week here!

    Thanks!

    Amy
    18x36 26.6k IG vinyl liner over concrete or concrete blocks - liner is slipped-out in spots, but not moving; constant slope from 3.5' to 8'; 1 shallow skimmer/2 deep-end eyeball returns; Pentair multi-port valve; 2010 Triton Sand filter TR60 (replaced identical 1994 model); Sta-Rite Dura-Glas Up-rated P2RA5E-124L 5" pump w/ AO Smith Centurian B848 switchless motor 1hp; (removed-TeledyneLaars LaarsLite heater); (removed-Sun Auto. Pool Chlorinator); (replaced-Hayward Vari-flo valve SP0710x-40)

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    In the Industry

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    Re: Money Pit, Part 2 - We really need to renovate!

    Not sure where you are located but locally if someone asked me to bid what you are looking at doing I would be close to that dollar figure. And here is why #1 what is my access to the pool? #2 how much fence and yard would be torn up by power equipment hauling fill rock into pool to reshape bottom? #3 who is paying to return fencing and yard to pre repair condition? #4 pretty much everything you are talking about is manual labor, even more so if you can't get a loader to move fill material into the area. I don't know I would recommend splitting up the project to much though. There is some aluminum coping available that you could put on and then put a bull nose coping over it. Requires a pretty good top ledge to screw it onto. Not sure where Joe public would be able to get it from though.
    Over 30 years in the pool business
    We build vinyl, fiberglass, stainless steel pools
    Certified in Hydraulics

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