Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed?

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Jblauert

Thank you! I am back again.

The floor system is Paramount 2000 Two modules, a 6 port and 3 port. I am not aware of a filter of any type
in that system. The modules (6 and 3) have water driven "pistons"(?) that either work or don't work--no inbetween.

If an item, perhaps a pine needle, gets stuck in the 'piston" while it is open, a malfunction occurs. I will remove and
check the controllers for obstructions. There is such a great drop in pressure--from 35 to 22--when the
"Aqua Pure" by-pass is opened. I am not sure where to check for a blockage in the heater. It is a Hayward "large" heater.
I can do better than that, sorry.

The missing o-rings on the cleaner/spa valve...is that a big problem?


I replaced the cartridges in the heater earlier. There seems to be too much "water noise". I may just not have
listened for "noise" before, but I hear almost "gurlgling" while the system is running. Especially in the plumbing
into/out of the heater--aqua pure.

I will make sure I have answered all of your questions. I am waiting for the o-rings and I need to buy a replacement
spring valve "plunger"(?) for the "White pipe".

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

I do not think that the orings are related ... I can only guess that you might get some water leakage or maybe not be able to 100% select between cleaner and spa return (of course you have the bypass anyway).

Do you know where the o-rings went? Could be that they got blown downstream and are clogging up the cleaner.

Although given the pressure difference with that bypass open, I suspect something is wrong in the heater and/or SWCG. BTW, with the bypass open, has the spurting and pulsing stopped?

I have lost track, are the pop-ups working at all?
What is the pressure with the heater bypass open in spa mode and cleaner mode?

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Jblauert

Boy, I'm with you! I almost forget why I'm here.

1) I have replaced the o-rings. No idea where they were. No evidence of air leaks.

2) I HOPE I have relocated the Black Widow spider living in the tool box next to my pool parts (Raid Spider)

3) With the heater by-pass open, no pulsating; closed=pulsating but not as much as prior.

4) The base psi, even with the heater by-pass open is now up to 30 (????).

5) When I cleaned out the pop-ups, they were nearly packed with dirt and pine needles (????).

6) I replaced the spring-valve; when the manual spa-return is "Open" there is barely enough
pressure to properly operate the pop-ups (drops to 10 at the pop-up module which has a pressure
gauge); when that manual valve is closed (so...all the water going to the cleaner) the Pop-ups are super-
charged...20 psi - 25 psi, but the filter PSI 30 - 32.

When the heater is NOT bypassed, I don't like the sound of the motor and "system"; the water level
visible in the pump seems an inch or so lower and when the heater is BY PASSED, THE water in the
pump is churning as high as possible into the crevices (sp) of the cover. I don't know what cavitation
is, but for some reason (and NO GOOD REASON) cavitation comes to mind when the heater is NOT bypassed.

It takes a lot for me to give up....as a matter of fact, I don't recall EVER giving up...but I am close..
That is me and me.

I can't make sense of all of this. I don't know if it is "normal" to "hear" water gushing at the edge of the
pool when the pop-up's cycle; either at the 'startup' or when modules change, but I hear either air
bubbles or, heaven forbid, water under the deck? That's not happening, right? When that noise occurs
there are many air bubbles coming up on the edge of the pool. I believe (hope) they are coming from the
main pop-ups. But that indicates air is getting into the system. I keep releasing the air from the top of the
filter. I have no idea where air is entering. (or how pine needles are getting in the Pop-ups; or, how
a golf ball made it through the system.

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

JBlauert

Cleaner Return Open (cleaner/spa) With heater by-passed 30
Without by-pass 35

Spa Return "open" (cleaner/spa) With heater by-passed 25
without by-pass 35


Hand valve for spa return has no apparent affect.

???????????????

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

I would think that the pressure of the cleaner and spa would be similar. With a regular pool I would say the spa pressure is probably higher due to the restrictions to have forceful jets, but the clean is basically the same concept, so maybe the pressures would be the same.

Based on the pressures I almost feel like there may be 2 issues ... plus another one.

#1. I do not think running water through the heater/SWG should cause a 5-10 psi pressure rise ... so something seems "off" with the heater/SWG. When the water is going only through the heater do you notice a decrease in water flow to the pool/spa? I assume it must be less.

#2. I would not think the heater-bypassed pressure of the cleaner would be 5 psi higher than the spa ... so something seems "off" with the cleaner. So you just cleaned out the pop-ups? Are they now sort-of working? Seems like there still must be a blockage.

This whole thread started with a question about running without the cartridges in. I am wondering if there was a lot of debris making it into your pipes and then with no cartridge in the filter (and/or the bypass open) all the stuff has clogged part of the cleaner up. That said, I would have thought the skimmer basket and pump basket (you have both of them right?) would catch the pine needles. I don't think I would ever bypass the filter if there is debris in the pool.

Problem #3. The pump basket should be 100% full of water after a couple minutes of running with maybe only a small air bubble on top ... so something is "off" on the suction side too as that is the only way air can get in the system. It could just be the fact that the o-rings in the valve have not been replaced yet. Or the lid is letting air in.

With my caretaker, there was certainly some air bubble that would come out, but only because I had solar. There will be some water noise when the manifold switches to each zone, but not too much as I recall.

Now let me address some of you points:
1) Which o-rings were replaced? Are ALL the Jandy valves now repaired? Are BOTH the actuators working?
2) Hope you got 'em
3) I think the pulsating is then due to the high pressure due to some restriction in heater/SWG then.
4) How dirty is this pool? Maybe the filter is getting dirty again.
5) Did you clean them IN the pool? Are they all clean now? Are they popping up?
6) I am not sure what this spring-valve is that you have mentioned a few times. Makes sense about the pressure change when you divert water to the spa. So you recall what the NORMAL pressure used to be? Maybe 30 is normal for the cleaner?

I am not sure what cavitation sounds like, it does almost seem like with the heater in circuit, the back pressure becomes too high for the pump to keep the suction up ... honestly I am not sure if that makes sense or not (a little over my head).

Do you have an auto-level for the water? Have you turned it off to see if the level drops (or do the bucket test). At least then you would know if you have a leak or not (could be 1 thing checked off the list pretty easily).

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

JBlauert

First (duh) what is "SWG"?

Definately difference between Cleaner and Spa; The spa does have an auxillary "jet" "pump" very strongh when activated. I agree with you that more than one issue may exist. I am just useless in identifying what they are.


#1. I do not think running water through the heater/SWG?? should cause a 5-10 psi pressure rise ... so something seems "off" with the heater/SWG. I don't notice any difference in water flow to the pool OR spa when Heater NOT by-passed; except,
the pressure gauge on filter raises 5+ of so, and the lowered water level evident in the pump basket. Its a
good drop; not the "supercharged" impression in the pump evident when the heater is "by-passed".
Other than the super increased Pop-up pressure (20-25 psi) at Paramount controller gauge when heater BY-PASSED; AND MANUAL Spa valve blocking flow to spillover,
spa return--white pipe.

But, the heater by-pass doesn't really by-pass the heater, it reroutes the
water from the filter to a t-connection that partially DOES bypass the heater, but the balance enters the heater by way of the Aqua Pure Cartridge Generator...entering the heater "backwards" (right?)

#2. I would not think the heater-bypassed pressure of the cleaner would be 5 psi higher than the spa ... so something seems "off" with the cleaner. So you just cleaned out the pop-ups? Are they now sort-of working? Seems like there still must be a blockage.
The pop-ups work GREAT IF..THE manual Spillover is "closed" and the heater bypassed. I suspect the pop-ups
need cleaning again since the "no cartridge filter testing".; and, I didn't clean all of them, they can be stinky. And I had mentioned,
I do suspect it is time for new cartridge filters for the Filter. They are "cleaned" but need replacement.

This whole thread started with a question about running without the cartridges in. I am wondering if there was a lot of debris making it into your pipes and then with no cartridge in the filter (and/or the bypass open) all the stuff has clogged part of the cleaner up.
That "clogging" may have been occuring for quite some time, unbeknownst to me. I have seen the needles disbursed
from the jets on occasion; and, as I said, removing the jets/caps results in surprising "debris". I may have a photo I can attach from yesterday.

That said, I would have thought the skimmer basket and pump basket (you have both of them right?) would catch the pine needles. I don't think I would ever bypass the filter if there is debris in the pool.
I did bypass the filter (oops) for a short time...won't do it again...and don't think it made things any worse they
they were despite that by passing (don't think)The "cleaner" is limited to "plumbing", the two valves (6 and 3 valve controllers),
No special filters or other "clean out". I agree there likely is a "blockage" of some type. The cleaner "return" BLOWS water into the pool
floor (main) and to the pop-ups via plumbing to the 3-port and then to 6-port controller (right?), and valve controlled to the two
main drains. I don't understand where the plumbing could be blocked or how the pine needles get in the pop ups. The water flow FROM the cleaner "intake" flows INTO THE POOL, correct?, then is sucked "out" through the skimmer or floor main drain? Anywhere else?
Even if they have amassed additional debris, the pop-ups work GREAT with the heater bypassed and the manual spillover valve closed.
This whole thread started with a question about running without the cartridges in. I am wondering if there was a lot of debris making it into your pipes and then with no cartridge in the filter (and/or the bypass open) all the stuff has clogged part of the cleaner up. That said, I would have thought the skimmer basket and pump basket (you have both of them right?) would catch the pine needles. I don't think I would ever bypass the filter if there is debris in the pool.
I have both baskets. I have found a minute leaf twiglette lodged in one of the "water driven pistons" but was able to remove it
Problem #3. The pump basket should be 100% full of water after a couple minutes of running with maybe only a small air bubble on top ... so something is "off" on the suction side too as that is the only way air can get in the system. It could just be the fact that the o-rings in the valve have not been replaced yet. Or the lid is letting air in. The difference between the "water action" visible
in the pump basket is extreme; 1) bypassed: full-up: being violently forced past the uneven inside pump lid 2) NOT bypassed;
very much less active and lower in the pump basket; seems inches. Alters back and forth as heater bypass valve is changed from
open to closed.

With my caretaker, there was certainly some air bubble that would come out, but only because I had solar. There will be some water noise when the manifold switches to each zone, but not too much as I recall.

Now let me address some of you points:
1) Which o-rings were replaced? Are ALL the Jandy valves now repaired? Are BOTH the actuators working?

2) Hope you got 'em
3) I think the pulsating is then due to the high pressure due to some restriction in heater/SWG then.
4) How dirty is this pool? Maybe the filter is getting dirty again.
5) Did you clean them IN the pool? Are they all clean now? Are they popping up?
6) I am not sure what this spring-valve is that you have mentioned a few times. Makes sense about the pressure change when you divert water to the spa. So you recall what the NORMAL pressure used to be? Maybe 30 is normal for the cleaner?

I am not sure what cavitation sounds like, it does almost seem like with the heater in circuit, the back pressure becomes too high for the pump to keep the suction up ... honestly I am not sure if that makes sense or not (a little over my head).

Do you have an auto-level for the water? Have you turned it off to see if the level drops (or do the bucket test). At least then you would know if you have a leak or not (could be 1 thing checked off the list pretty easily).

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

JBlauert

First (duh) what is "SWG"?

Definately difference between Cleaner and Spa; The spa does have an auxillary "jet" "pump" very strongh when activated. I agree with you that more than one issue may exist. I am just useless in identifying what they are.


#1. I do not think running water through the heater/SWG?? should cause a 5-10 psi pressure rise ... so something seems "off" with the heater/SWG. I don't notice any difference in water flow to the pool OR spa when Heater NOT by-passed; except,
the pressure gauge on filter raises 5+ of so, and the lowered water level evident in the pump basket. Its a
good drop; not the "supercharged" impression in the pump evident when the heater is "by-passed".
Other than the super increased Pop-up pressure (20-25 psi) at Paramount controller gauge when heater BY-PASSED; AND MANUAL Spa valve blocking flow to spillover,
spa return--white pipe.

But, the heater by-pass doesn't really by-pass the heater, it reroutes the
water from the filter to a t-connection that partially DOES bypass the heater, but the balance enters the heater by way of the Aqua Pure Cartridge Generator...entering the heater "backwards" (right?)

#2. I would not think the heater-bypassed pressure of the cleaner would be 5 psi higher than the spa ... so something seems "off" with the cleaner. So you just cleaned out the pop-ups? Are they now sort-of working? Seems like there still must be a blockage.
The pop-ups work GREAT IF..THE manual Spillover is "closed" and the heater bypassed. I suspect the pop-ups
need cleaning again since the "no cartridge filter testing".; and, I didn't clean all of them, they can be stinky. And I had mentioned,
I do suspect it is time for new cartridge filters for the Filter. They are "cleaned" but need replacement.

This whole thread started with a question about running without the cartridges in. I am wondering if there was a lot of debris making it into your pipes and then with no cartridge in the filter (and/or the bypass open) all the stuff has clogged part of the cleaner up.
That "clogging" may have been occuring for quite some time, unbeknownst to me. I have seen the needles disbursed
from the jets on occasion; and, as I said, removing the jets/caps results in surprising "debris". I may have a photo I can attach from yesterday.

That said, I would have thought the skimmer basket and pump basket (you have both of them right?) would catch the pine needles. I don't think I would ever bypass the filter if there is debris in the pool.
I did bypass the filter (oops) for a short time...won't do it again...and don't think it made things any worse they
they were despite that by passing (don't think)The "cleaner" is limited to "plumbing", the two valves (6 and 3 valve controllers),
No special filters or other "clean out". I agree there likely is a "blockage" of some type. The cleaner "return" BLOWS water into the pool
floor (main) and to the pop-ups via plumbing to the 3-port and then to 6-port controller (right?), and valve controlled to the two
main drains. I don't understand where the plumbing could be blocked or how the pine needles get in the pop ups. The water flow FROM the cleaner "intake" flows INTO THE POOL, correct?, then is sucked "out" through the skimmer or floor main drain? Anywhere else?
Even if they have amassed additional debris, the pop-ups work GREAT with the heater bypassed and the manual spillover valve closed.
This whole thread started with a question about running without the cartridges in. I am wondering if there was a lot of debris making it into your pipes and then with no cartridge in the filter (and/or the bypass open) all the stuff has clogged part of the cleaner up. That said, I would have thought the skimmer basket and pump basket (you have both of them right?) would catch the pine needles. I don't think I would ever bypass the filter if there is debris in the pool.
I have both baskets. I have found a minute leaf twiglette lodged in one of the "water driven pistons" but was able to remove it
Problem #3. The pump basket should be 100% full of water after a couple minutes of running with maybe only a small air bubble on top ... so something is "off" on the suction side too as that is the only way air can get in the system. It could just be the fact that the o-rings in the valve have not been replaced yet. Or the lid is letting air in. The difference between the "water action" visible
in the pump basket is extreme; 1) bypassed: full-up: being violently forced past the uneven inside pump lid 2) NOT bypassed;
very much less active and lower in the pump basket; seems inches. Alters back and forth as heater bypass valve is changed from
open to closed.

With my caretaker, there was certainly some air bubble that would come out, but only because I had solar. There will be some water noise when the manifold switches to each zone, but not too much as I recall.

Now let me address some of you points:
1) Which o-rings were replaced? Are ALL the Jandy valves now repaired? Are BOTH the actuators working?

2) Hope you got 'em
3) I think the pulsating is then due to the high pressure due to some restriction in heater/SWG then.
4) How dirty is this pool? Maybe the filter is getting dirty again.
5) Did you clean them IN the pool? Are they all clean now? Are they popping up?
6) I am not sure what this spring-valve is that you have mentioned a few times. Makes sense about the pressure change when you divert water to the spa. So you recall what the NORMAL pressure used to be? Maybe 30 is normal for the cleaner?

I am not sure what cavitation sounds like, it does almost seem like with the heater in circuit, the back pressure becomes too high for the pump to keep the suction up ... honestly I am not sure if that makes sense or not (a little over my head).

Do you have an auto-level for the water? Have you turned it off to see if the level drops (or do the bucket test). At least then you would know if you have a leak or not (could be 1 thing checked off the list pretty easily).

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Now let me address some of you points:
1) Which o-rings were replaced? Are ALL the Jandy valves now repaired? Are BOTH the actuators working?
2 small and one large for each of the valves under the actuators; both actuators work
2) Hope you got 'em "YES!"
3) I think the pulsating is then due to the high pressure due to some restriction in heater/SWG then.
4) How dirty is this pool? Maybe the filter is getting dirty again.
The pool looks pretty bad right now, but if I stop "messing with it", it cleans up beautifully! Gorgeous.
The debris at this point is a) dirt (?); b) Pineneedles (!) and very few leafs. I would net the leafs.
5) Did you clean them IN the pool? Are they all clean now? Are they popping up?
The pop-up heads? Unscrewed and removed, checked, and replaced; They are all popping up; bypassed supercharged; no bypass, pathetic and long cycle.
6) I am not sure what this spring-valve is that you have mentioned a few times. Ortega Spring valve on top of "spillover pipe with manual valve, behind circular flat lid.Makes sense about the pressure change when you divert water to the spa. So you recall what the NORMAL pressure used to be? Maybe 30 is normal for the cleaner?
Normal filter pressure for pool mode was 20 - 25 psi AT filter gauge; Pressure at Paramount modules should be 20 psi.
It's low without heater bypass.

I am not sure what cavitation sounds like, it does almost seem like with the heater in circuit, the back pressure becomes too high for the pump to keep the suction up ... honestly I am not sure if that makes sense or not (a little over my head).
That confuses me, also: The "cavitation"(???) is when the heater is NOT bypassed [LIKE YOU SAID]; the water level and activity in the pump much lower; an "empty almost grinding BUT NOT GRIDING " noise from pump, "empty tho" but water is pumping. cavitation? WHERE WOULD THE "BACK PRESSURE" COME FROM? That could cause the "pulsating" also, which involves the variation in "pump level"
Do you have an auto-level for the water? Have you turned it off to see if the level drops (or do the bucket test). At least then you would know if you have a leak or not (could be 1 thing checked off the list pretty easily).
I have an auto leveler and fill. I will turn in off and do the level test with a bucket. That is a very smart and
important test to run. Would it be possible to hear water running under the deck to the pup-ups or mains? Or leaking and causing that
sound?

Thank you for making me understand SO much regarding the plumbing; directions and troubleshooting techniques. Whjen this started I was legitimately afraid the filter lid would launch itself.....and then some.

 

[Ohm_Boy]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

SWG
An SWG is a Salt Water Generator, or more correctly, a salt-water chlorine generator. Yours is an Aqua Pure, I think. We call them SWG's.

Heater Bypass
Your bypass valve for the heater does not, as you pointed out, completely divert around the heater, rather it provides an alternative low-restriction path in parallel with it. The water will flow through the least restrictive channel first, however, so it can eliminate a great bulk of the flow through the heater when it is open, especially if the heater passages are plugged at all.

Low water in Pump Basket
The water drop in the pump basket is most assuredly caused by a problem on the suction side, not from the return side. There is either water starvation or an air leak. Assuming that the water level stays above the skimmer basket while the pump is running (low water levels cause a sucking vortex in the skimmer which runs low, then recovers, runs low, then recovers, etc.) then you may have an air leak, which could be as simple as the pump lid not sealing well (check for cracks/warping, clean/check/re-lube the o-ring) or possibly the inlet fitting on the pump gets loose and leaks (due to the overheating earlier), leak in the suction-side Jandy valve(s), etc. Also, make sure that the valve in the skimmer line is completely open. You definitely do not want to close off all the inlet (suction) lines to the pump at any time while the system is operating.

Thoughts
Lastly, I'm reasonably confident that there is a blockage on your return-side equipment. The substantial difference between "heater bypassed" and "heater not bypassed" tells me that there is some restriction in the heater. Yeah, OK, heater and/or SWG.
Maybe your cleaning system has trash in it. I don't know, because I have never dealt with one, and I have no idea what your setup is in that regard. I'd suspect any place where any trash in the system could collect, notably valves, nozzles, and such.

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Ohm_Boy

Thank you. Very very detailed and informative.

I actually printed your info and will use it to address each item.

There are a lot of places "stuff" can be lodged; nozzles, etc, etc.

What would constitute "water starvation" or is that a result of the
listed possibilities?

THANK YOU !

Lynn

 

[Ohm_Boy]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

What I meant by "water starvation" is a situation where the pump is trying to pump out more than it can take in.

Let's look at the pumping operation in a bit more detail...
There are some fixed parameters for pumps, such as the design of the impeller (the slotted thing inside that turns to actually move water) and the speed and power of the motor. These things define how much water the pump will try to move. These things will not change, and unless you have to replace the pump or design a system, you will not care about them. They simply exist.
As long as the pump has a supply of water, it will produce some combination of flow and pressure; both of these are related. Things that restrict the flow generally increase the pressure, and vice versa. This is the same as when you clamp your thumb over the end of a garden hose. The tighter you clamp down (restrict the flow), the more the water will build up pressure. This is what you are seeing in the return line of your pump. Somewhere, in the piping, heater, SWG, cleaner system, etc., one or more things has it's metaphorical thumb over your pump's "garden hose".

Now the other side of the pump...
As I mentioned above, the pump needs a supply of water to move. This is the water in the basket. As the pump pushes water out, it pulls water in. When the water in the basket goes through the pump, it must pull more water in through the suction piping. Naturally, there needs to be enough water available to supply the pump, or else you 'starve' the pump of water. This could happen if the water level in the pool drops below the intake. This is usually a skimmer-specific problem, due to the skimmer being situated at the waterline. It shouldn't happen to a bottom drain which will be sufficiently under water at all times. The pump can actually empty the skimmer if the water level is low, and there will be a lag before the water flows back into the skimmer to compensate. Once the skimmer fills back up, the pump will 'catch' and the flow will resume, emptying the skimmer again. This will cause the pump to go into a surge/starve cycle as the water becomes available, runs out, becomes available, runs out, etc. For the record, the water should generally be 1/2 to 2/3 the way up the skimmer opening. When the water drops below the opening like that, it allows air into the system. Air can also be introduced by a leak, such as with a warped pump basket lid, or a loose fitting on the suction piping. Your pump doesn't work well with air. Air in a hydraulic system is bad, and while we tend to not think of it this way, as a fluid-based mechanical system, your pool equipment is a hydraulic system.
There is a worse issue than air in the system, however, that can exist when the suction side gets blocked completely, such as might happen if the suction-side valves were to all get closed off. This limits the water available, but does not allow air into the piping, in effect making a vacuum on the inlet side of the pump. This reduced pressure in the pump can cause the water inside the pump to form voids, or bubbles, which implode violently and destructively against the surfaces of the impeller. This is cavitation. It is noisy/rattle-y, and can and will damage the pump if allowed to continue. This is generally pretty unmistakable. It's one of those things that, once experienced, is very recognizable from then on.

Sorry if I am rambling. I tend to do that.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Very well stated ... way better than my ramblings in my opinion

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Ohm_Boy
OMG! No! Not rambling. I am desperate to truly understand what is happening.

I have unraveled some things and am curious about some others.

#1) There is/was so much "crud" in the pop-up heads/nozzles. Been there a long time.???

#2) The pop-up's are removed. As I monitor the main pop-ups as the two modules alternate back and forth
(from the 6-port to the controlling 3-port)...streams of bubbles become evident coming from the main
cleaner input head. No bubbles for some time, then when the controller shifts...bubbles (air).

This same phenomena occurs with at least one of the pop-ups when they are activated. Streams of tiny
bubbles. Even I can understand air is entering somewhere.

#3) AMAZING: The main pressure is down to 20 psi on the filter (with the heater bypassed). I can't remember if
that number is affected by the pop-up's removed. I forgot to check with the heater not bypassed, but will.

#4) There is not one o-ring on any of the Jandy valves (except the one I just replaced)??? They are "in the mail".

#5) There is a cracked cap at the Paramount module [where the Ortega Spring valve is located]. I am enroute to
buy a new one.

Other than the cracked cap (which may or may not be sucking air based on the location of the crack); and the lack of
o-rings, there is nothing apparent to me "sucking air". I am replacing the cracked cap, I am putting teflon tape on
the drain caps to the pump housing; I am removing and replacing every lid; valve; top, etc.

The "system" is much much quieter. It "almost" hums again. But obviously, air is coming in somewhere. I think removing
the pop-ups elminated a great amount of "crud" and obstruction. I still just don't understand how that got through
the filter cartridges and the pump basket [the pine needles primarily]. I guess the dirt and silt could flow through.

Any more suggestions [before I'm off the the pool supply?]

THANK YOU!!!



#3)

 

[Ohm_Boy]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

I'll assume that the skimmer and spa suction inlet are sufficiently submerged, since you haven't mentioned any sudden realizations that they are sucking air.

If the Jandy valve on the inlet side has no o-rings, it may be leaking air. Again, I don't have hands-on experience with them, just kind of going by gut feel.

Here on the forum, we see our share of pump covers leaking. Cracked O-rings, warped lids, loose clamps, debris under the lid, etc. cause situations where air can infuse. One of the things that concerns me about your pump is that it melted the basket not long ago. This could have warped the lid or, perhaps, even the body where the lid sits. Someone else also mentioned the possibility for loosening the inlet pipe threads when an overheating like that occurs. I think it might have been in your other topic... I'll have to look back and see who it was, 'cuz I can't take credit for that knowledge. Anyway, those are two possibilities for leakage on the pump itself. Any crack in the suction pipe or fittings can also leak air.

You may be able to run water from a garden hose over the pump basket, inlet fitting, Jandy valve, and suspected componentry while the system is sucking air and see if the air infusion stops or diminishes. If the water stops the air, you've found your leak.

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Question: Odd?
I "blocked" skimmer suction with manual valve (just testing) after I replaced
o-rings on "floor" suction valve.

The pressure on the filter dropped to 10 psi (???). The "floor" valve was open
as "normal", the cleaner and pool mode were operational.

I was alarmed. I reopened the "skimmer" manual valve. The pressure returned to 20 psi
where it has been since putting everything back together. I thought everything
was going really well (well, except this 20 psi requires the heater by-passed.)
In pool mode, everything is put back together EXCEPT the pop-up heads are not all replaced.


The motor was sounding really smooth. Very little evidence of
air bubbles from pop-ups and only at various points in the pop-up module rotation.
Maybe 3 points. BUT the skimmer valve closed = 10 psi and very strange "sound"
is beyond me.

Does this make sense? (now that it is Friday night...St Patricks weekend?)

THANKS!!!
[attachment=0:18x4rxkr]sKIMMER VALVE.jpg[/attachment:18x4rxkr]

 

[Ohm_Boy]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

In that last photo, "sKIMMER VALVE.jpg", you have a situation where the spa suction is closed, the skimmer valve is closed, and the floor intake is closed. In other words, the inlet side of the pump is sealed off. Make sure you do not operate it this way. See my post above, where I said

There is a worse issue than air in the system, however, that can exist when the suction side gets blocked completely...

It may shed some light on that situation.

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Ohm_Boy

I would NEVER disagree with you. If we are talking about the two valves in the cropped photo.

Because I was just "inside" them, I believe the valves as shown are both open; the
"closed" part of the valve is pointing to the "left" in the photo, so the top and bottom routes
are both "open".

Or, Am I really confused ...and that is a distinct possibility.[attachment=0:6um734cv]sKIMMER VALVE cropped.jpg[/attachment:6um734cv]

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Also, I THOUGHT the "closed" skimmer resulted from rotating the valve handle EITHER
clockwise or counterclockwise 90 degrees "blocking" the flow vertically.

Again, I think that is what resulted in blocking the "skimmer" and dropping the
filter pressure to 10 psi. it may have gone lower, I am not sure, because I think
I reopened the skimmer valve.

I thought by closing the "skimmer" valve I left the "main" valve as the only "open"
intake. Because of the extreme drop in pressure, I thought possibly it indicated a
block in the main??

Again, I could be extremely confused.

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

OK, perhaps I reassembled the floor and skimmer manual valves wrong.
Yes, the spa actuator valve above and to the right of these two is "closed" (handle pointing to the left and "closed" part of the valve pointing to the right)
The two manual valves (floor and skimmer)..when I disassembled them earlier tonight and put them back together is with the part of the valve that "closes" the flow opposite the handle, or in the last two photos, pointing to the left. I believe this allows the flow vertically
from the ground up and past the valve to the horizontal pipe that leads to the pump.[attachment=0:2ltb4dz3]sKIMMER VALVE 3.jpg[/attachment:2ltb4dz3]

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

OMG! Talk about rambling...YOU have been SO great! I am just trying to clarify what I did.

The skimmer valve photos show the "standard" settings.

When I was "testing" and believed I "blocked" the skimmer input (the valve on the right of the two); I rotated that valve one quarter turn counter-clockwise, which I thought blocked the vertical flow....the valve handle pointed up, the "blocked" or "closed' part of the valve pointed down.

The "blocked" configuration is not the view shown in the "skimmer valve" photos.