Does any one have experience with chlorine free (Copper Ionization) systems? I need to eliminate the use of chlorine in my pool due to severe chlorine rash.
Chlorine free pool systems.
- Thread starter Mr. McD
- Start date
Hi,
I had one of these that worked with silver, copper and I believe zinc.
I had installed this trying to deal with hard well water which was a chemistry nightmare.
I worked reasonably well but still required about 1-2ppm chlorine. I was happy with it until I lost my water a few times in a row where the water had turned completely black overnight.
admittedly this was probably due to mineral content in the makeup water but nevertheless it took me nearly a full week each time to get the water back...also there were some staining issues...this was in a previous pool with a vinyl liner.
After 2 years I replaced this unit with a salt water chlorine generator and never looked back.
If you ask me I think a salt water pool is the way to go. This would be as close as a trouble free pool as you can get and the salt water is a lot softer on skin and bathing suits than regular chlorine.
I am tempted to think that the rash would not occur with SWG because the chlorine is in gas form.
I would suggest to see if you can locate a friend or friend of a friend with a salt water pool and go for a swim to test for the rash before you spend the money.
I had one of these that worked with silver, copper and I believe zinc.
I had installed this trying to deal with hard well water which was a chemistry nightmare.
I worked reasonably well but still required about 1-2ppm chlorine. I was happy with it until I lost my water a few times in a row where the water had turned completely black overnight.
admittedly this was probably due to mineral content in the makeup water but nevertheless it took me nearly a full week each time to get the water back...also there were some staining issues...this was in a previous pool with a vinyl liner.
After 2 years I replaced this unit with a salt water chlorine generator and never looked back.
If you ask me I think a salt water pool is the way to go. This would be as close as a trouble free pool as you can get and the salt water is a lot softer on skin and bathing suits than regular chlorine.
I am tempted to think that the rash would not occur with SWG because the chlorine is in gas form.
I would suggest to see if you can locate a friend or friend of a friend with a salt water pool and go for a swim to test for the rash before you spend the money.
I had a customer that claimed to have an allergy to chlorine. Whether they did or not I don't really know but regardless they did switch to a SWG and now they claim they can use their pool without any ill effects. Usually rashes are from lack of chlorine or severely high or off balance chemicals. I'm not saying you don't have a rash to chlorine but I know from other posts that mineral based sanitation is too slow at killing when compared to chlorine which can leave you open to nasties in your water. Also using metals in your pool can eventually lead to staining which you couldn't really get rid of as that process would inhibit the sanitation from that system. If you really have a chlorine allergy you might have to think about maybe bromine (similiar to chlorine) or a baquacil type product. There are people on here that know a lot more about chemicals that I'm sure will chime in.
We just moved to this house a year ago. We didn't previously have a pool. I started developing a severe rash after a few weeks of swimming. Now I get a mild rash even from taking a shower. I can only assume it is the chlorine. I had the water tested an it was fine. The plumbing in the pool is copper so to use salt it would require new plumbing. I am considering alternatives.
I know someone will ask, so I might as well: what's the rest of the stats on the water? I recall someone mentioning in another thread that pH not within range or other factors could also lead to skin issues...
It is likely that you should not assume that without furture data. Most folks that say they are allergic to chlorine just need to change up what levels of ph, cc, etc. they keep their pool at. Post some test results (see my sig for info on test kits etc.) and we may be able to help you sort it out your pool reactions (the shower thing I am not sure of...I would think that is not related to pool water). Also, see this link: http://www.troublefreepool.com/alternative-sanitizers-and-chemical-free-pools-the-truth-t3025.htmlMr. McD said:
I keep the pH at 7.2. I had the water tested it was fine. I don't have the exact numbers now as it has been a few month since I used the pool.
I don't believe I have an allergy to chlorine but the chlorine irritates my skin. One doctor says it is Eczema, I did not have the condition previously. Chlorine is known to irritate this condition. The condition is similar to poison oak and varies with the amount of chlorine exposure.
I don't believe I have an allergy to chlorine but the chlorine irritates my skin. One doctor says it is Eczema, I did not have the condition previously. Chlorine is known to irritate this condition. The condition is similar to poison oak and varies with the amount of chlorine exposure.
That is on the low end for ph, most prefer 7.5-7.8, though I am not sure this explains your reactions. Just to reiterate, posts your test results and we can see if we can be of any help.
By the way, I have heard that some folks with eczema benefit from adding salt and/or borates to their pools (I think it is working well for someone I know locally...both salt and borates in that case while still sanitizing with chlorine).
By the way, I have heard that some folks with eczema benefit from adding salt and/or borates to their pools (I think it is working well for someone I know locally...both salt and borates in that case while still sanitizing with chlorine).
Is this an indoor or outdoor pool? Is it exposed to sunlight? You keep saying the levels are fine, but when we say that we mean the full set of water parameters including Free Chlorine (FC), Combined Chlorine (CC), pH, Total Alkalinity (TA), Calcium Hardness (CH) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA). Do you know what type of chlorine was used in the pool -- Trichlor tabs/pucks, Dichlor granules, Cal-Hypo, chlorinating liquid or bleach, or lithium hypochlorite?
I have lived with eczema on my hand for the last 10 years. At times it has burned and itched so bad that I honestly wished my hand was cut off. There are many things that can cause eczema to flare up and the shower is one of them. Using the wrong soap and hot water on the eczema are no-nos. There are only a few soaps that are recommended for someone with eczema and I use Dove unscented for sensitive skin. Anything that is anti-bacterial is also a no-no as the alcohol dries out the skin. Certain foods and drinks can also cause flare ups so pay attention if you notice some burning after meals.
I have a SWG, borates, and keep my FC/CYA ratio as prescribed here at TFP. I can swim a few times a week for about 30 minutes each time and my eczema doesn't flare up. If I do much more than this or sit in the spa with my hand underwater then my hand will flare up. I haven't noticed any significant change by adding the borates. I believe the main culprit for my flare ups from pool use is being in the water for too long. I honestly don't think by having a chlorine free system would change a thing for my eczema. I've swam in high FC, 12ppm, with CYA at 60 and did not have any burning.
Salt water does have healing properties for my eczema but it is only at the ocean level of salt that helps me. When my hand breaks open and starts to bleed I soak my hand in my aquarium salt water for 15 minutes, new not used water, and that seals the cracks up in one or two soakings. The salt level used in pools isn't high enough for this to be of benefit for me.
I have a SWG, borates, and keep my FC/CYA ratio as prescribed here at TFP. I can swim a few times a week for about 30 minutes each time and my eczema doesn't flare up. If I do much more than this or sit in the spa with my hand underwater then my hand will flare up. I haven't noticed any significant change by adding the borates. I believe the main culprit for my flare ups from pool use is being in the water for too long. I honestly don't think by having a chlorine free system would change a thing for my eczema. I've swam in high FC, 12ppm, with CYA at 60 and did not have any burning.
Salt water does have healing properties for my eczema but it is only at the ocean level of salt that helps me. When my hand breaks open and starts to bleed I soak my hand in my aquarium salt water for 15 minutes, new not used water, and that seals the cracks up in one or two soakings. The salt level used in pools isn't high enough for this to be of benefit for me.
This is an outdoor pool with full sun exposure. The pool chemistry was tested at a local pool supply and they said everything was OK. They did a full range of tests, I am not sure what all the tests were. I use tabs, and occasionally a powdered chlorine if the level gets out of balance. Currently I am only monitoring the chlorine and pH until we put the pool back in use.
chem geek said:
This is new to me, I just started getting it this summer after several weeks of pool use. I get it the most on my legs and back, but to a lesser extent everywhere. It look and feels like a bad case of poison oak. I am following all the recommendations for treating it. I haven't noticed any food that affect it. Chlorine is the only thing I have identified so far.
ping said:
[/quote:1580twcc]Mr. McD said:
We need to know what all the above levels are to determine if there might be a chance the water balance might be causing your condition. Just because someone says your water is balanced doesn't mean much to me. By having your pH at 7.2 this can cause the chlorine to be more potent depending on your other chemical levels. Your water might be in great shape and we can go from there, but until we get those numbers it is not telling us anything about your water.
For us to be most helpful, we need your test results. They need to be current (within the last few days) and pool store results are notoriously inconsistent (just spend some time reading these forums). You will be best served by getting your own test kit (see my signature below for information).Mr. McD said:
I mean no offense, but as stated belfore, you do not know it is chlorine causing the problem...again we need some test results that are accurate. The information Ping shared is a another data point that suggests there are other factors than a properly chlorinated pool than could be the problem.Mr. McD said:
No, I don’t know for certain but since both the pool and my shower water contain chlorine it is highly suspect. I do not have the test results from this past summer but I will test the pool again before I use it this spring and post it here. To do it now would not help. Even if I made changes the water I am not likely to get into a 40 degree pool to see if I am affected.
linen said:
From what you had previously told us, we have no way of knowing you are in a climate that is not warm enough for swimming now...it would help us if you put location in your forum profile and your pool details in your signature.Mr. McD said:
You can use this chart to help distinguish between a chemical sensitivity vs. a bacterial infection. Of course, a competent skin doctor should be able to diagnose your condition. If you've been using Trichlor pucks and not had a lot of water dilution then the CYA level could be very high making the chlorine less effective and potentially allowing bacteria to grow. That's why Richard referred to folliculitis above.
Anyway, if you truly have a chlorine sensitivity, then you'll likely have one to bromine as well so the only EPA-approved solution for pools that is not halogen-based is Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB, but that comes with its own problems (expensive, white water mold, etc.). After that, you drop into non-EPA-approved solutions that won't kill bacteria as quickly. Going that route, a combination of Polyquat algaecide and hydrogen peroxide is an alternative (hydrogen peroxide is approved as a disinfectant in Australia). The problem with Nature2 is that the level of metal ions needed to prevent algae growth from copper and to slow down bacterial growth from silver are close to the level that can cause metal staining (especially in plaster pools) unless you are careful to keep the pH low. A technical comparison of the kill times from chlorine vs. copper and silver is in this post.
Anyway, if you truly have a chlorine sensitivity, then you'll likely have one to bromine as well so the only EPA-approved solution for pools that is not halogen-based is Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB, but that comes with its own problems (expensive, white water mold, etc.). After that, you drop into non-EPA-approved solutions that won't kill bacteria as quickly. Going that route, a combination of Polyquat algaecide and hydrogen peroxide is an alternative (hydrogen peroxide is approved as a disinfectant in Australia). The problem with Nature2 is that the level of metal ions needed to prevent algae growth from copper and to slow down bacterial growth from silver are close to the level that can cause metal staining (especially in plaster pools) unless you are careful to keep the pH low. A technical comparison of the kill times from chlorine vs. copper and silver is in this post.
Following from Richard and Chemgeek, having the pool tested for bacterial growth inc Pseudomonas aeruginosa is a good idea as you have inherited this pool you have no way of knowing how badly it was maintained. As you suspect chlorine to be the culprit you are likely to take a bad situation and make it worse by lowering the chlorine level where possible to suit your skin problem and as your first post described searching for non chlorine systems which may just allow more growth. If the chlorine level had previously been allowed to near zero through bad management then bacteria could have colonised the filter/pipework etc so having these areas tested by a lab would be an idea. Raising the chlorine level may not help as bacteria within biofilms can be very chlorine resistant so you may need something to attack the biofilm and allow the chlorine to do its work. Like wise changing the filter media if applicable, you haven't provided much information on the pool so limited advice can be given.
My doctor has ruled out infection and has treated it as contact dermatitis a form of eczema. The symptoms are identical to poison oak which I have had many times over my lifetime. It responds well to steroids but comes back after treatment is suspended. Steroid creams help control the itching does not cure it. The condition does improve some after several days without a shower. So far everything points to chlorine as the irritant and my doctor agrees this may be the case as chlorine is a common irritant for this condition.
The pool is about 16, 000 gallons; It has a Pentair DE filter and a new high efficiency Pentair IntelliFlo pump. We installed a solar heating system in the spring.
The pool is about 16, 000 gallons; It has a Pentair DE filter and a new high efficiency Pentair IntelliFlo pump. We installed a solar heating system in the spring.
