What to aerate with?

[GHR]

I've asked this question at another forum and was directed several threads here but so far none of the methods presented are doable in my situation. First off the pool I'm working on is for my Home Owners Association. I'm an unpaid volunteer.

We're in Houston, TX and by local pool codes our association has a Private Pool. We do not fall under guidelines for commercial pools nor are we required to be inspected nor permitted yearly. As long as the pool is clear and algae free and the pool fence has no opening big enough to let a child in we're good.

We had a pool service man who was consistantly letting the pool turn green with no explaination and finally no call backs, so he was fired second week of July after three big algae blooms in 8 weeks time. No pool service will take on a pool in the middle of summer and with a constant 100+ heat wave and drought, so several of us homeowners have taken this project on.

We have had things under control for the better part of a month now. The pool had to be drained after the pool man was let go since the CYA was way too high and our chlorine demand was off scale high. It took almost 30 lbs of shock to make the pool begin to go blue. Unbeknown to us the valve on the chlorine feeder leaks. We had it turned off with the remains of 6 tabs in it and it must have been seeping since the feeder was empty when I checked it. This caused a second drain/refill almost a month ago now.

Now with mandatory water restrictions we cannot drain anymore and only minimal dilution.

We are now using unstabilized 10% chlorine liquid for the pool and some cal-hypo 73% depending on need.

The balance has been maintained for the most part. CYA is about 50 by my reading with a TF-100 kit.
I have a problem with some others here going to a pool store and believing the reading they are getting to be true.
The pool stores keep reading CYA to be over 80 and more like 90. The others are in charge of the HOA not me so they
refuse to defer anyone but the pool store though they bought the TF-100 kit too. We've had it for just over a week.

Anyway the latest issue is the pH bouncing a little. pH keeps rising to around 8.2 with TA around 160 or so.

I need to lower pH and take TA with it. Our pool was replastered last summer, but it is over 40 years old and we have
only straight returns with no threads or any other way to attach anything to it.

That's the problem really. Some of the posts of people making aerators from PVC and such have attached them to their returns since they're threaded. We have no threads on ours; they're straight and always have been.

We also have no fountains, nor any other water features to make the water aerate. We cannot use a garden hose with water due to mandatory water restrictions in force for Houston.

I have an air compressor, but it's only for 1 gallon and not rated for continuous duty.

Save for splashing people which obvously we cannot do with pH very low what can I use to aerate once I add the acid?

This is the delemma I've been chewing on for the last two weeks or more. We expect some rain over the weekend, but
we're in a persistant drought so it might not be very much.

So any ideas will be appreciated.

 

[Richard320]

Last summer Pool girl rigged up a submersible pump and a lawn sprinkler to aerate.

 

[Optica]

oops ^^^^^^^ Richard beat me to it..but we are thinking of the same type of thing

How about a stand alone water pump taking pool water and pumping it to a fountain style head for a water hose? Would be simple and easy, removable when pool in use. Would have to consider electrical safety issues but they could be dealt with.

 

[frogabog]

A submersible pump will work, but do MAKE SURE that any pump you buy that will go into your pool is NOT designed with an oil filled motor. If that seal goes, the oil will leak into your pool. Oil and pools do not mix well. Not all submersibles are designed this way, but most are. Check the pump specifications closely.

 

[GHR]

That sounds interesting except we'd have to buy a pump and have a long extension cord since there are no outlets very near the pool within maybe 30 feet. But we do have an outlet at least so it's possible.

Got a link to a low cost pump of the correct type?

My HOA board are going to take convincing of the need to use MA and aerate to bring TA down to begin with since they're still relying on pool store advice over mine. It's a (too) long story, but I'm a junior member of the maintenance team so I'm not being listened to. This dispite the fact that I've seen fit to learn all I can about pool chemistry and they will not.

Do you have a link to that thread?

When I searched the forum for "aerate" and "aeration" and similar words it turned up zero hits; not even the threads that I've seen before actually.

 

[frogabog]

Use the google search at the bottom left of this page. It's a far better search. Aerate is too common of a word around here. It'd be like searching for "pool", lol.

Can you stick a tube of sorts into one of the returns, point it up (bungees!) and then stick something into the end to make it spray a bit? It ain't pretty, but if you can do a makeshift fountain in a couple of the returns like that you'd have some aeration. The concept is similar to putting your thumb on the end of the garden hose. Last aeration we did in this fashion I stuck a round nose-clip case into the tubing. Worked as well as I figured it would.

 

[GHR]

Use the google search at the bottom left of this page. It's a far better search. Aerate is too common of a word around here. It'd be like searching for "pool", lol.

Can you stick a tube of sorts into one of the returns, point it up (bungees!) and then stick something into the end to make it spray a bit? It ain't pretty, but if you can do a makeshift fountain in a couple of the returns like that you'd have some aeration. The concept is similar to putting your thumb on the end of the garden hose. Last aeration we did in this fashion I stuck a round nose-clip case into the tubing. Worked as well as I figured it would.

OK. I've had that with other forums too. But it returned zero hits not too many.

What is a round nose-clip case? :?:

Is there any chance to do damage to the PVC of the returns? My HOA will not let me even attempt something that could result in damage to the pool and I would not want to either.

The return pipe stubs are original to the pool which was built circa 1971 (these condos were apartments then).

The pool was resurfaced last summer, but nothing was changed as far as suction or return piping. The original return ports were straight and that is what was left in place.

The returns are small about 1/4" or perhaps 3/8" in size and we have three of them along the side that of the filter, one on the stairs, and one at the shallow end.

 

[frogabog]

I would use a flexible pipe of some sort, but finding the right size might prove laborious. Flexible tubing won't damage stuff. If it's not a tight fit, try a bicycle inner tube to use as a gasket.

The round nose clip case is just something I had that fit into the end of the tube without getting pushed back out by the force of the water. It held some crummy $1 nose clips that never worked so the kids threw them away. I kept the case, thinking maybe I would find a good use for it. It could be anything that you can shove into the end of the tubing to make the water spray. Search the junk drawer in your kitchen? :~} Even some super sticky duct tape applied over the end of the tube would make the water spray enough to make bubbles when it lands back into the pool.

 

[GHR]

I would use a flexible pipe of some sort, but finding the right size might prove laborious. Flexible tubing won't damage stuff. If it's not a tight fit, try a bicycle inner tube to use as a gasket.

The round nose clip case is just something I had that fit into the end of the tube without getting pushed back out by the force of the water. It held some crummy $1 nose clips that never worked so the kids threw them away. I kept the case, thinking maybe I would find a good use for it. It could be anything that you can shove into the end of the tubing to make the water spray. Search the junk drawer in your kitchen? :~} Even some super sticky duct tape applied over the end of the tube would make the water spray enough to make bubbles when it lands back into the pool.

OK. Now I get what you meant. I thought you meant it as something to hold the tube in place. I'm not sure I can find tube to fit either. What a chore.

 

[Richard320]

post167079.html?hilit=aerator#p167079 is the thread.

Is there, by chance, a hose bib on one of the returns near the filter? That would really make it easy. No additional pump needed.

 

[Leebo]

This may be a stupid question as well, but how fast does your PH raise right now? Is there a chance that maybe just lowering the PH and TA with the acid and allowing the PH to raise back up on it's own will work just as fast??

I also wish you good luck with convening them that the pool stores don't always have the pools best interest in mind. I know how it is taking care of somebody else's pool with several others playing around with the chemicals and levels at the same time. It's in everybody's best interest for just one person to maintain the pool at a time. Maybe even step up and offer to take 100% control over the maintenance and offer to continue full time next year to avoid having to use a pool service.

 

[GHR]

http://www.troublefreepool.com/post167079.html?hilit=aerator#p167079 is the thread.

Is there, by chance, a hose bib on one of the returns near the filter? That would really make it easy. No additional pump needed.

Nope. No such luck. No threads on any of the returns nor the skimmer for that matter.

Unfortunatly for me and the pool the powers that be here are not listening to my information.
Thus they have not bought further muriatic so if and when pH rises again I cannot even reduce it.
I have a willfully blind HOA board member and manager in charge (a very dysfuntional HOA board as you can see) who will not listen to anyone, but the pool store "experts".

The expert in question is the mgr. at the Leslie's pool who does seem to know her stuff. I cannot deny that. But that doesn't mean she's being careful enough with the tests.

We have obvious scaling on the pool walls. This is evidence both pH, TA and CH being not quite right. The CSI must be pretty high. Yet, the pool store test reading of TA somehow reads below 120 and pH normal 7.8 and CH at 250.

These numbers are all way lower than my readings and are not supported by visual evidence.
I read TA at around 160 last time I checked it. Too high but you get the idea.
The CH is about 145ppm lower than my reading of 370ppm and is not supported by the scaling and its of powder in the water.

Anyway, all my questions here are no rendered academic and moot until someone listens to what I've said based on
the information I've aquired rather than some supposed "expert".

I don't know why they even bothered to by the TF100 kit if they're not going to believe the results.

Thank you for your attemps to help.

 

[GHR]

:grrrr:

This may be a stupid question as well, but how fast does your PH raise right now? Is there a chance that maybe just lowering the PH and TA with the acid and allowing the PH to raise back up on it's own will work just as fast??

I also wish you good luck with convening them that the pool stores don't always have the pools best interest in mind. I know how it is taking care of somebody else's pool with several others playing around with the chemicals and levels at the same time. It's in everybody's best interest for just one person to maintain the pool at a time. Maybe even step up and offer to take 100% control over the maintenance and offer to continue full time next year to avoid having to use a pool service.

Every three-four days it rises to above 7.8 and close to 8.2. I've added acid four times now in the last three weeks.

As for the rest. I am not sure what to do. We have a somewhat dysfunctional board. Three board members and a manager who was the president but she recently was foreclosed on by her bank and so is no longer able to be the president. She's litigating what she calls and illegal foreclosure and fighting the person who bought it at auction too. She is still holding the HOA up though and being defered to as if she was still president. The Board members (my mother is one of them) won't cross her if she says something and she's the one who refuses to listen. We've gone 12 rounds on this as it is. Looks like 15 more to go. :grrrr:

A little background to this story is that for the better part of 2 years our pool was closed while we gathered fund to replaster.
From June of 2009 though May of last year I alone (mostly) kept the pool clean enough to swim though it was closed since we had plaster coming off due to age.

The Leslie's mgr is a nice enough lady and really does seem to know her stuff. I do trust her advice on it's face in a pinch and can say she isn't lying when I've asked her a question. She has given us some breaks on chemicals in the past and discounts on the test kit we bought the first time by about 30%.

That said, being a nice person who's honest doesn't make her testing more accurate.
TA is most definitly not 120 or below if our pH is bouncing like it is, and CH is most definitly not 225 if we have water like calcium deposits.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it before, but the water test that has really set some of this problem in motion was done Friday morning
after I'd just added a quart of MA and 1.6 gallon of chlorine. The sample was taken less than 30 minutes after I added the MA and chlorine. Surely that test is skewed right? That's what I've been saying at least to be ignored. If the pool store mgr who tested the water was told how soon the sample was taken after adding MA and chlorine I think I wouldn't be ranting right now. :grrrr:

I've requested to be given the right to take care of the pool as far as possible and I was told "no" and that the "expert" would be deferred to. :grrrr:

 

[frogabog]

Maybe the pool store manager can help you? What if you took your log book, test kit, and a sample to her to test while you also test the same source right then and there? The reagents in the TF100 are Taylor, there's no issue with their ability to accurately test. Explain the situation some and ask her to put in a good word for you and your test kit with the current naysayers, maybe you'll gain some credibility. If she's an honest person, she'll realize you're not a dolt and understand the chemistry and should be trusted with the pool care. Maybe she will look into her testing protocols or you two can hash out some kind of resolution to the discrepancies.

If this trusted expert told them to trust you and your kit, would they?

Even my neighbor who has been nearly foreclosed on at least once a year for the past 17 years that she's been there hasn't had her house sold at auction. It has never got that far (I wish she'd stop saying it is going to happen, I get so excited only to be let down...). I think your president is likely sol soon. Gotta miss a whole lotta payments in a row and many letters will be sent, probably some phone calls and chances offered before that would actually happen, right?

 

[GHR]

Maybe the pool store manager can help you? What if you took your log book, test kit, and a sample to her to test while you also test the same source right then and there? The reagents in the TF100 are Taylor, there's no issue with their ability to accurately test. Explain the situation some and ask her to put in a good word for you and your test kit with the current naysayers, maybe you'll gain some credibility. If she's an honest person, she'll realize you're not a dolt and understand the chemistry and should be trusted with the pool care. Maybe she will look into her testing protocols or you two can hash out some kind of resolution to the discrepancies.

If this trusted expert told them to trust you and your kit, would they?

Even my neighbor who has been nearly foreclosed on at least once a year for the past 17 years that she's been there hasn't had her house sold at auction. It has never got that far (I wish she'd stop saying it is going to happen, I get so excited only to be let down...). I think your president is likely sol soon. Gotta miss a whole lotta payments in a row and many letters will be sent, probably some phone calls and chances offered before that would actually happen, right?

I wish it were so simple. I don't drive and the Leslie's store in inaccessable to me by bus. One more gotcha in this mess. I've wanted to do a similar thing with my neighbor in that I would do the test as she watched but she blew me off. The only way I can get to that particular store is by car.
I hate going with my neighbor since she's got the most awful shrilling scream when she raises her voice. It's like nails on a chalk board that gets my adrenalin up and I end up screaming too. We both end up making fools of ourselves, but only I realise it.

The only Board member I can talk to about this will NOT even talk abuot the pool. She has no care at all and is of the opinion to just fill it in. She said it's up to the manager/former president and would not further entertain my attempt of her to see reason.
Never mind that this is a breach of her fiduciary duty and if the pool is damaged from high pH/TA/CH or someone gets sick/burned from high pH she'd be liable and likely uncovered by insurance since it's willful blindness w/ malace of forethought.
This too has been mentioned and ignored.

The foreclosure thing has been years coming and twice pulled. It's a bit convoluted though. The original bank sold the note and she was making overpayments for interest to bring her Adjustable Rate loan down. The bank that bought the loan decided to escrow the extra money so she created a dispute by writing on her check "final payment on account in dispute". Under fair debt collection practice act which is federal and state they're supposed to either accept it by cashing it or send it back. The bank did the former and she refused to pay further and on advice of an attorney stopped paying. The bank posted it for foreclosure then pulled it with a message via email from their attorney that it had been pulled because "the loan was paid in full". But the bank refused to settle the note so she sued them for various and sundry and lost on the aforementioned claim of fair debt collection act violations.
The bank has never countersued and it's been four years which she is trying to say means they have forefited their right to do so and therefore cannot foreclose the note.

She also wants to be her own attorney whilst using an attorney. The attorney she had helping her pro bono didn't take kindly to that and asked for leave to be dismissed and had it granted. Right shortly thereafter it was posted for foreclosure and purchased for 23001. $1 more than the base price. She was posted with an eviction notice two weeks ago and is fighting that too. She still thinks she'll win though her argument is that the bank's change of ownership of the note has a break and thus they didn't own the whole note and so could not legally foreclose. She wants to void the foreclosure and get her home free of charge.

As I said this is very convoluted.

Thanks for reading this.
I really am ranting now.

 

[chem geek]

If you can't aerate, then just add enough acid to lower the pH to around 7.0 at the end of the day (i.e. after the pool is closed, assuming you have closing hours), keep the pump running, and by morning it will likely be back up to 7.2 and continue on its way up higher. The next day add more acid to get to 7.0 again. Check the pH in the morning. As the TA gets lowered this way, the pH might not get to 7.2 in which case you should change your evening pH target to 7.2. If you keep this up, the TA will drop over time and the rate of pH rise will slow down as well. It's a more time consuming process, but still faster than it would be if you didn't lower the pH aggressively -- obviously combining this with aeration is even faster.

Eventually as your TA gets lower, you'll be able to have a higher CH and that allows you to use Cal-Hypo as you have been doing.

Basically, the lowering of TA is a "pay me now or pay me later" kind of situation. It takes 25-1/2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) to lower the TA by 10 ppm in 10,000 gallons no matter what you do. By lowering the pH and aerating, you just speed up a process that would occur over time anyway. You basically get the "pain" of rising pH over with sooner by being more aggressive about the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing -- forcing it faster by having the pool pH be lower and, when possible, by aerating the water. Aeration is not required to make this work -- it just makes it work more quickly.

 

[GHR]

If you can't aerate, then just add enough acid to lower the pH to around 7.0 at the end of the day (i.e. after the pool is closed, assuming you have closing hours), keep the pump running, and by morning it will likely be back up to 7.2 and continue on its way up higher. The next day add more acid to get to 7.0 again. Check the pH in the morning. As the TA gets lowered this way, the pH might not get to 7.2 in which case you should change your evening pH target to 7.2. If you keep this up, the TA will drop over time and the rate of pH rise will slow down as well. It's a more time consuming process, but still faster than it would be if you didn't lower the pH aggressively -- obviously combining this with aeration is even faster.

Eventually as your TA gets lower, you'll be able to have a higher CH and that allows you to use Cal-Hypo as you have been doing.

Basically, the lowering of TA is a "pay me now or pay me later" kind of situation. It takes 25-1/2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) to lower the TA by 10 ppm in 10,000 gallons no matter what you do. By lowering the pH and aerating, you just speed up a process that would occur over time anyway. You basically get the "pain" of rising pH over with sooner by being more aggressive about the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing -- forcing it faster by having the pool pH be lower and, when possible, by aerating the water. Aeration is not required to make this work -- it just makes it work more quickly.

OK. That will work if and when it comes to that. It will have to do also since I still don't have a truely effect way to aerate. The suggestion of a hose over one of the returns might work if there's enough stub to do this. I don't think there is though.

My HOA board are not making this easy and now they haven't purchased anymore acid in any form. The pH was supposedly normal 7.8 at the last check of the pool store so it was deemed unnecessary to get more acid. More reliance on pool store people.

I just wish I knew why they bothered to get the TF100 test if we're not going to rely on it.

 

[frogabog]

Man... what a lame situation. Have you considered backing out entirely and telling them you have no more interest in helping? Watch the pool go to Crud, and refuse to use it to boot. Maybe focus your HOA efforts elsewhere?

7.8 will quickly become 8. Duh! I honestly don't think I could deal with people who are incapable of realizing the top end of "ok" is too close to "not ok" and prepare for it. I also don't think I could deal with people who refuse to bother to do their own BASIC pH testing daily. A pH test is a pH test. Anyone who ever owned a fish tank knows how simple it is to run a pH test, sheesh!

When the pool goes green again, you can laugh as you walk by. I would.

 

[GHR]

Man... what a lame situation. Have you considered backing out entirely and telling them you have no more interest in helping? Watch the pool go to ****, and refuse to use it to boot. Maybe focus your HOA efforts elsewhere?

7.8 will quickly become 8. Duh! I honestly don't think I could deal with people who are incapable of realizing the top end of "ok" is too close to "not ok" and prepare for it. I also don't think I could deal with people who refuse to bother to do their own BASIC pH testing daily. A pH test is a pH test. Anyone who ever owned a fish tank knows how simple it is to run a pH test, sheesh!

When the pool goes green again, you can laugh as you walk by. I would.

It's interesting that 7.8 didn't drift up but down a little. The last two times it read about 7.6. About halfway between 7.5 and 7.8. I have not checked the TA in a couple of days.

Call me obsessive (they have), but I cannot stand by and watch a train wreck and do nothing. That's what it would be a train wreck.
My nature is to try to finish what I begin though that doesn't always happen. I've put too much time and effort to see it wasted due to ignorance of basic pool chemistry.

Not to mention letting down anyone who wants to swim. Though there are fewer of them now there are still some in the afternoon and on weekends. It's still averaging 98+ degrees and might still have a few 100+ days since we're in extended drought.

They won't even touch the test kit that was purchased with HOA money. I wish they'd just pony up and hire a service as soon as the temps go down some. So far I'm not sure how much they even searched for a new pool service.

I had fish when I was a child, but I don't remember checking pH or ever being told to.
Though it wasn't a tank, just a bowl. Maybe that's why the fish always died. :blah:

 

[Speedo]

I haven't read everything in this thread since there is quite a bit of information, but at a glance, what if you were to use a small pump and garden hoses?

if the outlet is 30' away, can you find a way to attach the end of the hose somewhere in the pool to keep it steady?

this pump would give you plenty of flow.

it might be too loud though, just a thought..