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Thread: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

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    Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    So the new pump, filter, ect. is now installed and wanted to fiqure out how long I needed to run. YES, I know there is a topic in pool school that is "figuring out pump run time" but that seemed to be running a big circle to get to the same point as a straight line.

    I have the whisperflo wfds-24, running on low my PSI is 0 @ 3in hg
    RETURN DYNAMIC would be 2.31x0psi+3psi=3
    SUCTION DYNAMIC would be 1.13*3in hg=3.39
    So my head on low would be 6.69 or just round to 7, so with my pump curve I would be moving 40GPM or 2400GPH, so I can turn over 22K Gal in 9.2HRS on LOW.

    Running on high I'm at 13PSI @ 7in hg
    RETURN DYNAMIC would be 2.31*13PSI+3PSI=33.03
    SUCTION DYNAMIC would be 1.13*7in hg=7.91
    So my head on high would be 40.94 or 41, with my pump curve for high I would be moving 80GPM or 4800GPH, so I can turn over 22K Gal in 4.6hrs.


    The numbers do seem correct to me, they are directly proportional to ea other. The flow is what doesn't seem correct, when I look at the fountain or feel the returns on low, it just doesn't seem like that is moving 40GPM.

    I do alot of automotive work, so I already had a vacuum gage, but for those who don't and want to do this go to harborfreight or www.harborfreight.com. I think the gage was aroun $15 and actually had the NPT adapters to fit my pump basket drain

    Please shot me your inputs

    Seth
    22,000 Gal Vinyl Inground, Pentair Quad DE 80, Pentair Whisperflow 2spd WFDS-24, Stenner pump w/15 gal tank for liquid chlorine, clorinator, Polaris 380, Fountain

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    You're getting too technical for me...I just moved valves around and timed how long it took to move a few inches out of and then back into the spa from the pool.

    40 GPM should be easy to check...hook up some type of hose adaptor and see how long it takes to fill a 5 gallon bucket. It shouldn't take long, have someone else stand by the switch while you hold the hose!!
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    [quote="Richard320"]You're getting too technical for me...quote]

    Actually I'm not!! This was just the info that i pulled from? Mark I beleive?, in his post Hydraulics 101 have you lost your head. You can easily know your GPM by having your pump curve and two numbers, one of them is provided for you. So pump curve, filter psi and vacuum= knowing your GPM. Here's how you do it

    Return Dynamic Head=2.31*filter psi+3psi Mark says the added 3psi is because generally the pressure gage is 3ft above the pump.
    Suction Dynamic Head=1.13*Vacuum measured in In Hg

    Add your Return and Suction Dynamic readings and that equals total head. Plug your total head into your pump curve, scroll across until you meet the curve, scroll down and you will have your GPM. Once you have your GPM, you can fiqure your GPH and get your true and accurate turnover times.

    Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong. I was doubting myself only because what is coming out of my returns didn't seem like it could be moving 40GPM
    22,000 Gal Vinyl Inground, Pentair Quad DE 80, Pentair Whisperflow 2spd WFDS-24, Stenner pump w/15 gal tank for liquid chlorine, clorinator, Polaris 380, Fountain

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    How many returns do your have and what size are the eyeballs?

    I doubt your return pressure is 0. It's probably close to 1 psig if not more.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    2-1.5in returns and then the feed for the polaris. I would guess its about 50% less then the 1.5in returns. Currently only one eyeball, other is removed for fountain. PSI is now 1 on low speed, but starting PSI was 0
    22,000 Gal Vinyl Inground, Pentair Quad DE 80, Pentair Whisperflow 2spd WFDS-24, Stenner pump w/15 gal tank for liquid chlorine, clorinator, Polaris 380, Fountain

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    First, I would not trust pressure and/or vacuum measurements at low speed because the gauges are not that accurate at the low end of the range. Plus, when the filter pressure reads 0 PSI, it could actually be a negative value but the gauge does not go below zero. This is why it is best to make measurements at high speed and use the affinty laws to predict the flow rate at low speed which is 1/2 of high speed.

    However, if the plumbing changes with flow rate, then determining the low speed flow rate using the affinity law may not be very accurate. About the only thing that can change the plumbing with flow rate is a check valve. When flow rates reduce, the check valve can partially close increasing the friction loss of the valve.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    Just need a little clarification, so my apologies to the OP. If my Total Dynamic Head is 36.32 (11psi & 7hg), and the Hayward chart on my pump (SP3210X15) shows 100 GPM @ 40, I could safely use that GPM since the chart doesn't go below 40? So the water in my 14K gallon pool is being turned over every 2.33 hrs? I feel like I'm missing something. Thanks
    Viking Laguna 14K IG , Smart Pure SWCG, SwimClear C5520 Cartridge Filter, TriStar 1.5HP, SmartControl PLP4 controller.

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by noaliasneeded
    Just need a little clarification, so my apologies to the OP. If my Total Dynamic Head is 36.32 (11psi & 7hg), and the Hayward chart on my pump (SP3210X15) shows 100 GPM @ 40, I could safely use that GPM since the chart doesn't go below 40? So the water in my 14K gallon pool is being turned over every 2.33 hrs? I feel like I'm missing something. Thanks

    Assuming your math is correct on your head loss, I didn't check it, you would use the 40ft for your loss. I looked at your curve and looks like you got it all correct. So yes you would be turning over your 14k in 2.3hrs. In my opinion, your pump is way too big for your pool. Not sure if you have a spa or not, but if not you don't need that much flow. Jason and Mark had told me, at beginning of my pump search, you want to have a turnover of about 8hrs and slower is more effecient. Although, I'm new to TFP and am not the expert
    22,000 Gal Vinyl Inground, Pentair Quad DE 80, Pentair Whisperflow 2spd WFDS-24, Stenner pump w/15 gal tank for liquid chlorine, clorinator, Polaris 380, Fountain

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    First, I would not trust pressure and/or vacuum measurements at low speed because the gauges are not that accurate at the low end of the range. Plus, when the filter pressure reads 0 PSI, it could actually be a negative value but the gauge does not go below zero. This is why it is best to make measurements at high speed and use the affinty laws to predict the flow rate at low speed which is 1/2 of high speed.

    However, if the plumbing changes with flow rate, then determining the low speed flow rate using the affinity law may not be very accurate. About the only thing that can change the plumbing with flow rate is a check valve. When flow rates reduce, the check valve can partially close increasing the friction loss of the valve.

    Well my gauge was slightly off of zero, about one or less, so I know it wasn't negative. The values that I pulled from high and low speed were proportional in the GPM, which they should be. My math came to 80GPM High and 40GPM Low. Even though taking measurements at low speed worked for me and seemed accurate, I do agree that it could not be accurate and gauges aren't dead on.

    Thanks all to your inputs, I feel comfortable saying my turnover, on low, is alittle over 9hrs. All it took was alittle math and about 10 minutes to get my fiqures from the pump and filter
    22,000 Gal Vinyl Inground, Pentair Quad DE 80, Pentair Whisperflow 2spd WFDS-24, Stenner pump w/15 gal tank for liquid chlorine, clorinator, Polaris 380, Fountain

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    Thank you. The 1.5 HP was what the builder picked when the pool was installed last August. I run it from 11am to 5pm with the SWCG set at 45% and have had absolutely no problems keeping the water crystal clear.

    Thanks again.
    Viking Laguna 14K IG , Smart Pure SWCG, SwimClear C5520 Cartridge Filter, TriStar 1.5HP, SmartControl PLP4 controller.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    I have a hard time believing you only have 36' of head with a 1.5 HP pump. What size is the plumbing?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    Plumbing is 2"
    Viking Laguna 14K IG , Smart Pure SWCG, SwimClear C5520 Cartridge Filter, TriStar 1.5HP, SmartControl PLP4 controller.

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by noaliasneeded
    Thank you. The 1.5 HP was what the builder picked when the pool was installed last .
    Seems that builders picking oversized pumps is a common thing
    22,000 Gal Vinyl Inground, Pentair Quad DE 80, Pentair Whisperflow 2spd WFDS-24, Stenner pump w/15 gal tank for liquid chlorine, clorinator, Polaris 380, Fountain

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by noaliasneeded
    Plumbing is 2"
    36' of head is pretty low for 2" plumbing. You must have a combination of multiple and/or short pipe runs plus very few fittings or valves.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump turnover time, is this correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    Quote Originally Posted by noaliasneeded
    Plumbing is 2"
    36' of head is pretty low for 2" plumbing. You must have a combination of multiple and/or short pipe runs plus very few fittings or valves.
    The equipment is 30' from the pool, which is 14' x 30'. All of the returns (3) are fed from the same side of the pool. I can't recall if they are all fed from a single 2" run branching off to each return, or a dedicated run to each one. You are correct that there are not alot of fittings or valves.
    Viking Laguna 14K IG , Smart Pure SWCG, SwimClear C5520 Cartridge Filter, TriStar 1.5HP, SmartControl PLP4 controller.

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