Need help....stains are getting worse!

[8lbcalico]

Okay I have tried to understand as much of what the pros have suggested on this site in order to keep my pool in check. I have come a very long way in the last month and think I'm at the point of getting it, but everything always seems to go south on me.

Background:
I have been battling Algae on a constant basis over the last 5 years. Living in the rural parts of so cal. with horses, horse trails, lots of dust and dirt in the air, a dog who absolutely LOVES to swim not to mention the sun breaking down every bit of chlorine I put in. Unfortunately I have numerous problems (all caused by me previously not having a clue) including stains from using cooper/silver based algaecide and allowing the water to become unbalanced or being unbalance in the first place. Recently I received my TFT Kit and found several unremarkable results (after learning what I have) that seem to fit right in with the problems I'm having in keeping my FC and pH balanced.

I have been adding about 32oz of 12% chlorine and about 2 to 3 cups of muriatic acid per day.

Results:
FC = 0
TC = 0
CC = 0 - I assume..wasn't clear on this LOL
pH = 7.8
TA = 130
CH = 300
CYA = 0

Questions on balancing:
1. I obviously need to balance/test my water better now that I can see the above results should I follow exactly what the pool calculator says? Does it account for the chems it suggested in its other results? i.e. Add 9.2 oz chlorine, so it knows that with that I have to also add 3 cups of muriatic acid?
2. What is the best product and most cost effective means of bringing up the CYA (brand name please) pool calc suggests 7 lbs

Questions on staining:
From what I have learned/understand I have copper stains, possibly etching, and scale. I have pics if you would like me to post them. All due to an unbalanced pH and TA plus high chlorine levels and the algaecide. Please by all means stop me if you think I'm wrong. I have tried the Leslie's Stain 2 with little to no results on any of the staining problems even though one guy at one store says yes it will remove copper stains and another guy says that re-plastering is the only thing that will remove the stains WTF. I have read about Jack's copper stuff and also Metal Magic are there others and for SEVERE stains will they even work?

Other factors that play into the mix may be:
In 07 the pool was drained and acid washed after the fires pool was literally black and had about 10 to 14 inches of ash, dirt and other random large and small debris throughout. Acid wash was applied very heavy and the guy may have gone overboard have had a rough plaster surface since and algae has been tougher to control.
Plaster is at least 10 plus years old
I have been a pool balancing idiot for the 5 years I have owned it until I found this site

-8lbcalico

P.S. Thank all of you pool pros and Jo's alike for all the information you have shared on this site it has been an eye opener for sure and really has helped me to come a long way from where I was. I no longer just blindly walk into a pool store with a sample and buy whatever they tell me to.

 

[linen]

Okay I have tried to understand as much of what the pros have suggested on this site in order to keep my pool in check. I have come a very long way in the last month and think I'm at the point of getting it, but everything always seems to go south on me.

Background:
I have been battling Algae on a constant basis over the last 5 years. Living in the rural parts of so cal. with horses, horse trails, lots of dust and dirt in the air, a dog who absolutely LOVES to swim not to mention the sun breaking down every bit of chlorine I put inYou have no CYA. Unfortunately I have numerous problems (all caused by me previously not having a clue) including stains from using cooper/silver based algaecide and allowing the water to become unbalanced or being unbalance in the first place. Recently I received my TFT Kit and found several unremarkable results (after learning what I have) that seem to fit right in with the problems I'm having in keeping my FC and pH balanced.

I have been adding about 32oz of 12% chlorine and about 2 to 3 cups of muriatic acid per day.

Results:
FC = 0 As you know...not good. Once you get some chlorine in there, make sure you do a OCLT to determine if you need to shock. See:http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/overnight_fc_test. Hopefully you won't need to, but if FC has regularily sitting at 0, I would guess you will.
TC = 0
CC = 0 - I assume..wasn't clear on this LOLWhat did you have problems with?
pH = 7.8
TA = 130
CH = 300
CYA = 0

Questions on balancing:
1. I obviously need to balance/test my water better now that I can see the above results should I follow exactly what the pool calculator says? Does it account for the chems it suggested in its other results? i.e. Add 9.2 oz chlorine, so it knows that with that I have to also add 3 cups of muriatic acid?I do not believe it knows until you tell it. Chlorine is relatively ph neutral, so unless you are making huge changes, I do not think it matters. In my experience, adding muratic acid does not effect FC,
2. What is the best product and most cost effective means of bringing up the CYA (brand name please) pool calc suggests 7 lbsStabilizer granules are best. I can get ~5 lbs (HTH brand) at hardware store for about $14. Make sure it is ~99% Cyanuric Acid

Questions on staining:
From what I have learned/understand I have copper stains, possibly etching, and scale. I have pics if you would like me to post them. All due to an unbalanced pH and TA plus high chlorine levels and the algaecide. Please by all means stop me if you think I'm wrong. I have tried the Leslie's Stain 2 with little to no results on any of the staining problems even though one guy at one store says yes it will remove copper stains and another guy says that re-plastering is the only thing that will remove the stains ***. I have read about Jack's copper stuff and also Metal Magic are there others and for SEVERE stains will they even work?

Other factors that play into the mix may be:
In 07 the pool was drained and acid washed after the fires pool was literally black and had about 10 to 14 inches of ash, dirt and other random large and small debris throughout. Acid wash was applied very heavy and the guy may have gone overboard have had a rough plaster surface since and algae has been tougher to control.
Plaster is at least 10 plus years old
I have been a pool balancing idiot for the 5 years I have owned it until I found this site

-8lbcalico

P.S. Thank all of you pool pros and Jo's alike for all the information you have shared on this site it has been an eye opener for sure and really has helped me to come a long way from where I was. I no longer just blindly walk into a pool store with a sample and buy whatever they tell me to.

 

[Butterfly]

Welcome to the forum

linen gave good info - you need chlorine and CYA!

You can buy the CYA/conditioner/stabilizer from Wallyworld.
You are already using liquid chlorine

Every time your pH rises to 7.8, use muriatic acid and lower it to 7.2.
According to the PoolCalculator.com, it will take 69 ozs. (2 qts. 5 ozs.) of 31.45% muriatic acid
to take your pool from 7.8 to 7.2. You should not need to add acid every day. What a pain :grrrr:
Lower the pH first.

I suggest you go ahead ad bring your pool to shock level of 10 FC by adding about 2 gallons of 12% liquid chlorine.
You should shock because your FC dropped to zero.

At the same time you are shocking, add enough CYA to raise to about 30ppm.
Use the sock method and hang it in front of a return. 24 hours after it is added, assume it is there and adjust FC/shock levels accordingly.


The PoolCalculator will give 'goals' if you complete the Suggested Goal Levels near the bottom.
Select TroubleFreePool, Bleach, & Plasterl Then when you want to figure a "now and target" the goals will appear over the blocks.
You can also find Recommended Levels in Pool School.

How does your water look? Do you have algae now? What kind of of pool brush are you using?

After the water is balanced and all is rocking along, then you could address the stain issues.
But, the water balance is first priority.

 

[8lbcalico]

make sure you do a OCLT to determine if you need to shock

It hasn't been at 0 for long...this morning it was at 1-2 on the OTO and the test results listed previously were run late in the afternoon. This has been typical as the heat and sun intensity increased over the last several weeks. I have since added the suggested chlorine and acid. I will get the CYA in the am after I finish my OCLT. This evening after adding my chems it was at FC = 2

How does your water look? Do you have algae now? What kind of of pool brush are you using?

Water is crystal clear. No Algae visible and I have always used stainless steal brushes.

I will start the shock tomorrow after the OCLT if I have lost more than the 1ppm as indicated in the test directions. Adjust my shock levels after adding CYA according to the chart found here? chlorine-cya-chart-t2346.html "CYA of 30ppm and an FC Shock of 12.2 to 18.2ppm"

-8lbcalico

 

[linen]

I have since added the suggested chlorine and acid. I will get the CYA in the am after I finish my OCLT. This evening after adding my chems it was at FC = 2

I will start the shock tomorrow after the OCLT if I have lost more than the 1ppm as indicated in the test directions. Adjust my shock levels after adding CYA according to the chart found here? chlorine-cya-chart-t2346.html "CYA of 30ppm and an FC Shock of 12.2 to 18.2ppm"

-8lbcalico

You are going to have a hard time doing the OCLT with the OTO test. Not sure of a good solution here without getting a better kit (with FAS-DPD). I would try and get you FC level up to 6 ppm tonight (then test an hour later). If you FC is too low to start with, you may not see much of a change regardless of potential organics.

12.2 is for normal shock 18.2 is for mustard shock (no need to do that unless the lower level does not kill what you might have). Simplified chart: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock or use the poolcalculator.com (this is what I use).

 

[8lbcalico]

Linen: I have the TF 100 kit, wasn't gonna post until I had that and had successfully run the tests a few times to acclimate to the process.

OCLT proved that I'm losing .5 ppm in a 12 hour period
readings at 7pm: FC = 2
as of 7 am FC = 1.5

The CC (if that matters) didn't change and remained at .5 or one drop of R-0871 for both tests.

On my way in a bit to get CYA and some more chlorine.

 

[linen]

OCLT proved that I'm losing .5 ppm in a 12 hour period
readings at 7pm: FC = 2
as of 7 am FC = 1.5

The CC (if that matters) didn't change and remained at .5 or one drop of R-0871 for both tests.

On my way in a bit to get CYA and some more chlorine.

Others here know better than me on this, but I have experienced where at low FC levels, OCLT passes, but at shock levels it does not. I agree with your going to higher levels and re-doing the OCLT.

 

[8lbcalico]

Okay as per the HTH instructions I adjusted my pH to 7.2 (it went up a bit from last night) and brought my FC to 3.

I had to put the CYA in two socks both are hanging in front of returns on opposite sides of pool. Can I swim with these socks in?

Also if my pH is fluctuating so much does that mean my TA needs to drop from the previous reading of 130? I read that a high TA will give you an increasing pH is this correct?

Finally considering my OCLT results should I still bring the pool up to a shock level? Water is still clear and no apparent signs of algae.

Again thanks for the help REALLY appreciate it.

-8lbcalico

 

[Beamup]

Others here know better than me on this, but I have experienced where at low FC levels, OCLT passes, but at shock levels it does not. I agree with your going to higher levels and re-doing the OCLT.

I have seen this as well. In my case it was specifically with mustard algae. I don't know whether that is relevant or not.

 

[8lbcalico]

Okay going to shock levels this evening. Will 4 gallons be enough to keep the shock level up long enough? Mustard algae is very relevant it is the algae I have been fighting with the most.

 

[frogabog]

Test your water, plug the results into the now column in the pool calculator, plug in the CYA level you have added, and look at the bottom, set the goals to Trouble Free Pools. Now, look in the pink section (suggested chlorine levels) and you should see what is recommended for your CYA level. Don't forget to enter the pool volume at the top.

Then, plug in shock level into the target column (chlorine, top selection zone) and mouse over the bleach/chlorine field (make sure it's set to 6% if you're using bleach, or 12% if that's what you're still using) and it will calculate exactly how much to add to raise up to shock level.

Then, test hourly with the TF100 (not the OTO - yellow) to see how much chlorine you're loosing. Use the calculator again and add chlorine/bleach to reach shock level. Do this repeatedly.

The pool calculator is your friend, go ahead and get friendly with it. It will answer all the quantities as long as you tell it where you are, and where you want to go (test results, and targets).

 

[8lbcalico]

Stupid question: just to confirm I should do the shock at night right?

 

[Beamup]

Shocking is a continual process usually over multiple days. The OCLT is done at night. Since at the moment it sounds like you've opted to bring it up to shock level to do the OCLT and see what result that gives, I'd say to add enough chlorine to bring it up to shock in the evening. Test an hour later. Then test in the morning and those will be your numbers for the OCLT. (Pump running throughout.)

 

[frogabog]

You shock 24/7 until you're done so it doesn't really matter when you start it. What matters that shock level is maintained through the entire process. Shocking will continue through the next day if you start it at night, regardless.

There are 3 criteria to meet to know when you are done shocking/maintaining shock level irrespective of time of day.

1) .5ppm or less combined chlorine (CC)
2) Loss of 1ppm or less on the overnight chlorine loss test (OCLT)
3) Water is clear

So is your plan to take it to mustard shock level and keep it there throughout the process, or are you aiming for standard shock level?

 

[8lbcalico]

I guess I'll start now and aim for 12.2 ppm (sorry for the confusion) or standard as there are no visible signs of algae.

 

[frogabog]

12%? You mean you're going to use 12% liquid chlorine?

Surely you don't mean you plan to dose the pool to 12% chlorine. You need to use the calculator, if you're using 12% chlorine you will want to change the chlorine selector to 12% instead of 6%.

Accurately dose the pool, don't just throw some in. Test in half an hour to make sure you hit your target. If it's low, use the calculator and dose again.

Word of caution however, if your pool volume is not accurate, your dosing recommendations/results will also be a bit off.

 

[8lbcalico]

I used this calculator to figure in the volume http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-owner/resources/calculators/pool-volume-calc/poolcalc.htm

I'm fairly close, plus I have an old water bill when we refilled and estimated between 20 and 22,000 gallons.

 

[8lbcalico]

Update:

I brought my pool up to a mid level shock FC = 16.5 CC = .05 @ 6:30pm (tripped over the dog, fell and poured in a bit too much chlorine LOL...bad dog! S-i-t, stay)

Tested approx. every hour thereafter:
7:30pm FC = 15.5 CC = 0.5
8:30pm FC = 14.5 CC 0.5
9:30pm FC= 14.5 CC 0.5
10:30pm FC= 14.5 CC 0.5
11:30pm FC= 14.5 CC 0.5

I retested the last two FC batches twice to be sure I wasn't missing anything and that I did stop FC loss.
The CC test on the last two rounds was almost unnoticeable, there was such a faint hint of pink that the actual result could be .3 or .2 is this common? One drop obviously cleared it right out. I may be tired, lighting could be an issue.
For fun and games I did a CYA test and it is reading about 25 at the moment. That test is so subjective it's not even funny. Its about as subjective as an eye exam. Wish there was a drop test for that.

-8lbcalico

 

[frogabog]

Wish there was a drop test for my eyes...

Takes over a year to get used to a new script and then they change it on me. I've decided I will not force focus during eye exams ever again. Fools them into thinking I can see and hurts my head.

Bifocals at 36yo... love them. TG for progressives :~}

BTW, HTH stabilizer/conditioner happens to dissolve fast, and some (myself included) have been able to test it accurately at 24 hr's after the sock is empty. YMMV of course, your best bet is to assume what you put in is in... and dose according to that number. No test required really.

 

[linen]

8lbcalico,

Any FC and CC results for this morning? CYA testing got easier for me after I did it a few times and got he hang of it. What CYA level are you shooting for?

I had to put the CYA in two socks both are hanging in front of returns on opposite sides of pool. Can I swim with these socks in?Yes

Also if my pH is fluctuating so much does that mean my TA needs to drop from the previous reading of 130? I read that a high TA will give you an increasing pH is this correct?Depends of pool/chlorinating method/water features/enviroment etc., but usually yes.