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Thread: UPDATE - GUESS WHAT WE FOUND .......Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

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    UPDATE - GUESS WHAT WE FOUND .......Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Any ideas why my pressure at the pump gauge registers about 5-7 psi higher than at the filter? Clean filter, pressure at the pump is 15 psi and at the filter is 10psi. The plumbing goes from pump output 6" to a 3-way valve (to bypass filter as necessary). From valve goes to HIgh-Flow valve of Pentair Quad 100 filter.

    Is it possible that the 3-way valve in close proximity to the pump output (6") is creating additional pressure? The reason I am concerned is because I am experiencing priming problems when the pump has not run for about 14 hours. When it starts, sometimes it does not prime. My vaccum (suction side) is about 5 and already checked the lines and no obstructions. According to Pentair, the filter pressure should not be lower than the pressure measured at the pump. Already changed gauges. Once it is running, I get 50 GMP with 2350 rpm.

    Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Post a picture of the layout.
    It most likely the 3-way valve that's causing at least part of the restriction.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    I suspect you are correct because when it is trying to prime and does not, I start moving the 3-way valve to start partially bypassing the filter, and the pump starts priming. My concern is the T valve acting almost as a wall being so close to the pump output. I'll try to take some pictures.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    According to Pentair, the filter pressure should not be lower than the pressure measured at the pump.
    Of course pressure will be less at the filter than pump. I don't understand why they would say that. There are two reasons it is less at the filter. One because the gauge at the filter is 3' higher than the pump so static head is less. The second reason is there is head loss between the pump and filter. You can't avoid that. So the filter pressure is at least 1 PSI less than the pump and usually more that. Especially if you have valves between them.

    Also, most backwash valves have a lot more head loss than 3-way valves and 5 PSI drop would not be uncommon.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Also, those pressure gauges aren't usually all that precise to begin with, so there is no reason to expect them to read the same even if the pressure was the same.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Here are the pictures.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    and more. This 3-way is what I am worried about.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    That is a good quality valve. When set to full flow in one direction, as yours is set, the flow restriction is almost identical to having a common 90 degree fitting (if one were used in the same place). That valve is not a problem.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    I agree with Jason, 3-way valves have very low head loss. However, backwash valves tend to have very high head loss and about half the head loss occurs on the input to the filter and half at the output. There are a lot of channels and turns in a typical backwash valve. I don't have specific data on yours but a Hayward 714 has about 9 PSI of loss at 50 GPM so around 4.5 PSI loss on the input section. Add 1 PSI for the filter height and you are at 5.5 PSI loss between the pump and filter.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Makes sense. Then to the difficult problem which is why it fails to prime when it is off overnight. Checked both suction and return lines and don't seem to have obstructions. The problem started when I replaced the old SWB 72 filter with this new Quad 100 DE. Sometimes to get it to prime I have to turn the Jandy filter bypass valve coming out of the pump. Almost like the pressure is preventing priming, although, the pressure readings are fairly low. Any suggestions? Thanks.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    An air leak could cause the symptoms you are describing. Do you notice any air getting into the pump strainer basket after it has been sitting overnight?
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Sounds like you have an air leak in the filter. Backwash valves can leak air into the plumbing while the pump is off but still not leak water out when the pump is running. Usually it is the spider gasket in the backwash valve. Was the valve reused from the previous filter or is it new?

    Try this:

    After full priming the filter and pump, release the air out of the filter until water comes out of the relief valve. Turn off the pump and listen near the filter and if you can hear bubbles going up the filter, then you have a leak somewhere. You can try the hose method to see if the leak can be found.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    It is brand new filter and brand new hiflow multiport valve. Thank for the suggestion. Makes sense. If you look at the second picture you will see that I have the autopilot sampling lines connected. In between the filter and the multiport valve and out in the suction side of the pump. Could it be that I am introducing air through the sampling lines when the pump is off?

    Also dumb question, what is the hose method?
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Sure, that is a likely spot and a good place to check. Those connections have a tendancy to leak. Do you see any air in the pump basket while the pump is running?

    The hose method is to pour water over a section of pipe/fitting with a hose and see if the air leak subsides. However, you need to hear the air bubbling into either the pump or filter.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    The answer to your question is YES. The pump never runs without air bubbles regardless of speed. The problem is to figure out wher are they coming from. I am thinking about asking Autopilot if I can place check valves in both sampling lines. Air always comes down from the solar when I shut the pump.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    If you have air in the pump basket while the pump is running, then the leak is on the suction side and probably from the Autopilot connection but putting in a check valve would not help. It is likely leaking around the fitting that goes into the pipe.

    Other places where air can leak is the pump basket lid gasket and drain plugs. A little pool lube can fix that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rmklaw
    Air always comes down from the solar when I shut the pump.
    That is suppose to happen. The vacuum release valve opens and air allows the panels to drain.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Thanks mark. I did the hose test, but nothing changed. I am going to check the suction side fittings. My concern with the Total Control is that any air from the return side solar goes through the sample lines and back to the intake. That is why I thought of the check valves. As it stands, I had to move the in sampling line from the SC60 manufold to the filter pipe because when the solar drained it was introducing air and I could never prime.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    Assuming I am following along correctly, there should be a check valve that prevents air from the solar system from getting back into the filter. The Total Control water sample line needs to be on the filter side of that check valve. Also, if that check valve was leaking, perhaps kept from completely closing by some bit of debris, it could account for what is happening.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Pentair VS+SVRS Pressure

    You are correct. There is a check valve. What happened before I moved the sample line is that it was connected to the manifoldwhich is after the checkvalve. Now as you can see in the picture I have it between the filter and the multiport valve (filter side of check valve as you suggest) to prevent air from the solar. I did remove the check valve flap and cleaned it. I can't help but think as you and mark said that there is some minor air leak which is allowing the pump basket to drain down between runs.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Re: UPDATE - GUESS WHAT WE FOUND .......Pentair VS+SVRS Pres

    You would not believe this one. We found that the dealer delivered the wrong High Flow valve with the Quad 100. It should have been 261050 Triton Quad DE, but instead the installed valve was 261142 DE. In other words, the filter was running backwards. I took the filter apart and the inside of the cartridegs were half full with DE and the rest of the inside dirty. The bands holding the cartridge pleats had stretched and were loose. Pentair said that the cartridges were no good any longer.

    The dealer made good. Gave me a new high flow valve, check valve and 3-way valve and tomorrow they are giving me 4 new cartridges. I spent all day replumbing since the valve and ports are completly reversed from the old one. Tomorrow I will test the system and report.
    Richard, Temecula, CA
    28,000 Gal. In-Ground Black Marble Pebble Tec and tile, Intellichem with Chlorine and PH control, Pentair EasyTouch 8, ScreenLogic Wireless, Intelliflo VS+SVRS pump, Intellibrite lighting, Pentair Quad 100, Solar heating, Pentair Mastertemp 400 Gas Heater, Water feature spillover from SPA.

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