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Thread: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

  1. Back To Top    #1

    At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    I tried so hard to figure out my application without having to ask, especially as a first time poster. There is so much great information on here. Unfortunately I hit a dead end in my research and I really do need some help.

    My pool is over an over 20 years old in-ground and I have to replace filter and pump. My wife wants chlorine generator.
    I'm in SW Georgia. I mostly get tree flowers pine straw and a ton of green algae as my worst problems.
    The pool is a liner, 16 x 36 rectangle with 9 1/2 deep and 3 1/2 shallow. I calculated at 28,000 gallons.
    I have no heater, spa, waterfall or solar.
    It is a basic set up with the closest end containing the bottom drain and two basket returns at about 20 ft. There are two returns at the opposite end.
    I have 1 1/2 inch pipes and I think 2 inch at the pad.
    The pump is about 4 feet lower than the pool.
    I have a Polaris with a booster pump.

    I did my calculations and came up with an approximate 55 gal/min minimum. The maximum I came up with was about 85 gal/min.
    Head pressure calculation (guesstimate) of about 55-60.

    I'm looking to change from an old foxx sand filter to a ~520 (Pentair or Jandy) cartridge filter (I never want to clean the filters ) I looked into the sand filter a couple months ago and I had plants growing in the sand???

    My question is in regards to the pump replacement. Here is what I found for the pumps:

    Pentair Whisperflo WFDS-3 3/4 hp 2 speed 7.8A/3.0A
    Pentair Whisperflo WFDS-24 1 hp 2 speed 7.8A/3.0A


    Pentair Superflo 1 1/2 hp 2 speed 7.8A/3.0A

    Sta-Rite SuperMax 1 1/2 hp 2 speed 7.8A/3.0A

    Jandy Stealth SHPF 1.0 2 speed 7.2A/3.0A
    Jandy Stealth SHPM 1.5 2 speed 7.2A/3.0A

    Jandy FloPro 1.5 hp 2 speed 8A/3.0A

    From these two companies, the pumps seem about equal? I just cant seem to find information from these two companies that explains the differences in their pumps and describes the pros and cons. It seems all of these pumps are in the same price range, but what makes one better or different than the other? I have read opinions about which brand is better, but not too much as far as objective descriptions of the differences. I'm looking for the most efficient, the quietest, the best built pump and ultimately the best value pump for my application. Information that would be helpful from the manufacturers would be pump design, quality of steel and bearings, how they handle heat dissipation, motor efficiency etc. They don't explain how set-up has alot to do with noise, and I found that out reading this forum. I understand that buying a product from a dealer you trust may be as important as the manufacturer of the product. That is unless it is not. I just hate buying relatively expensive products this way.

    Also, why produce the same pump/motor but label it with 2 different horsepowers? For the Stealth and whisperflo above, are each of the two pumps exactly the same????

    David.
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  2. Back To Top    #2

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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Check the height intake vs the existing pump. Is it a Hayward Super Pump? If it is, The Pentrair Superflow is a direct replacement. Everything lines up with it's unions. The same is true for the Jandy FloPro. 1.5 HP 2 SP for either would do nicely.
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  3. Back To Top    #3
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    The WhisperFlo is the best pumps of the ones you have mentioned, though the FloPro isn't too far behind. They move noticeably more water for a given amount of electricity than the others.

    There is a long history of marketing people inflating the HP ratings of pumps. That has been going on for so long that it has become embedded in the pump culture, so that there is more than one "official" way to label HP. Most of the major manufacturers offer two or more different styles of labeling, resulting in different HP ratings for the same pump. The directly comparable numbers are the SFHP, which is HP * SF, where SF is service factor. Look for phrases like "up rated" or "max rated" vs "full rated". A full rated pump will have a HP lower than the same pump when it is up rated or max rated.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Check the height intake vs the existing pump. Is it a Hayward Super Pump? If it is, The Pentrair Superflow is a direct replacement. Everything lines up with it's unions. The same is true for the Jandy FloPro. 1.5 HP 2 SP for either would do nicely.
    You must read minds! I purposefully did not say the existing pump, but I think that is correct! They love the Super Pump out here. I just wanted something a bit more efficient. It would be nice to have the unions meet up, but I sure would like to clean up the pad a bit as I will be adding the filter and electrode, so I was planning on doing some PVC work anyway. Thanks!


    Thanks Jason! I'm glad you chimed in. I'll go back and try to make my decision with the new information. The internet is full of facts about the new variable speeds and it seems like no one really discusses these as much.

    Thanks for the explanation, but I still do not see the purpose of having two products with the same exact motor, just labeled differently, other than to take up more shelf space.

    When I return home this weekend, I will snap some pictures to post.
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  5. Back To Top    #5
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Just to add to your confusion, the 1 HP 2 speed Superpump is actually more efficient than all of the pumps you are looking at. Not because it is anything special but only because it is one of the smallest two speed pumps on the market. And yes, it is smaller than even the 3/4 HP pumps mentioned. The primary driver for pump efficiency is the head curve. The lower the pump's head curve, the more efficient the pump will be.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    Just to add to your confusion, the 1 HP 2 speed Superpump is actually more efficient than all of the pumps you are looking at. Not because it is anything special but only because it is one of the smallest two speed pumps on the market. And yes, it is smaller than even the 3/4 HP pumps mentioned. The primary driver for pump efficiency is the head curve. The lower the pump's head curve, the more efficient the pump will be.

    Let me ask this question. When reading the graphs, the head curves would be the multiple "swoops" you see going from left to right from a high head to low showing increased flows with decreasing head. When you say "the lower curve", literally it would mean the curves closest to the x axis or does it have to do with the slope or shape of the curve? Do you need a pump efficiency characteristic line for each pump to see this?

    Can you please try to give me an example comparing two pumps or direct me to a simple explanation?

    So if everything else was equal, I'd just have to look for the most efficient curve? An that curve is determined by design characteristics of the impeller and or motor?
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  7. Back To Top    #7
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    First, a little background information.

    When I talk about efficiency, it is slightly different than the traditional view of efficiency which is usually a measure of power in vs power out. However, what most pool owners should be interested in is the amount of water pumped (i.e. gallons) for a given amount of energy (i.e. watts-hrs). So if you look at just the gallons per watt-hr that a pump can produce on a given plumbing system, you have an idea of the true energy cost of a pump.

    It takes proportionaly more energy to move more water faster so a pump that moves water twice as fast as another pump, will use more than twice the energy to do so. For example, let's compare a few of the pumps that you are looking at using the same plumbing system (CEC Curve-A).

    WFDS-3, 3/4 HP full rated, 61 GPM @ 1571 Watts, 2.33 gallons/watt-hr

    WFDS-4, 1 HP full rated, 64 GPM @ 1795 Watts, 2.14 gallons/watt-hr

    SuperPump, 1 HP up rated, 51 GPM @ 1194 watts, 2.56 gallons/watt-hr

    The WFDS-4 is a larger pump and can produce a 5% higher flow rate than the WFDS-3 but it takes 14% more power to do so. Therefore, the WFDS-3 is about 9% more efficient than the WFDS-4. However, because the Superpump is even smaller than the WFDS-3, it is about 10% more efficient than even the WFDS-3. So in general, the smaller the pump, the more efficient it will be.

    As for the head curve, most pump series are shown on a graph such as this one for the Whisperflo series. Note than the lower the HP rating of the pump, the lower the head curve. The smaller pumps will have better efficiency simply because they are smaller and move less water for a given head loss. However, some pump head curves from different manufactures will cross at some point and the story then reverses. In these cases, it is important to know where the operating point will be for both pumps to know for sure which pump will be more efficient. But if the head curves are close, it probably won't matter all that much.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Mark, that was a really great explanation. I hope I am starting to understand more.

    So I think you are finally saying that you must find out how much water you will be moving and then use this point on each pump's curve to see how the pumps compare at the specific rate you are asking them to perform at. Each pumps curve will have a different slope so depending on how much water you need to move, some pumps will be better than others at the set flow rate. If you change the amount of water you are moving, you flow rate, another pump may be more efficient. Sort of like horsepower curves? You can have several cars that will put out 200hp, but they will all do this at different RPMs.

    For my needs, I assume I need to find the pump that is most efficient at pumping my minimum of 55 GPM, the minimum I need to turn my pool to turn it over every 8 hours. In your example, the power consumption of each of the pumps you listed was at different flow rates for each pump.

    In the end, because the head curves of the pumps I am looking at are so close, they will all still be about the same at 55 GPM.

    All in all, given that smaller pumps are more efficient, why not find a 2 speed .5 hp full rated pump? If my head calculation is correct at lets say 60, then the most I could pump (using the .5 hp Whisperflo curve) would be 40 GPM. It will still give me turnover two times a day instead of three, but in my application, with a Polaris and booster pump, I'd be running at low speed probably all the time anyway. I assume that if such a pump were made, the low speed curve would be similar to the other curves of the 2 speed pumps shown. If such a .5 hp 2 speed pump were made, this would be the most efficient for my application?


    OK. I have another question. When using the head curves as in the example for the Whisperflo series, when looking at the 2 speed pumps, you need to evaluate only using the high speed. However, they show curves for the low speed too. All these curves are fairly flat from the 0 to 30-40 GPM range and are all pretty close for all sized pumps. How do I decipher what the low speed curves mean? The dynamic head at 0 flow is so much lower than the dynamic head of my system.
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Well, I am leaning towards the whisperflo 3/4 (1) hp 2 speed to replace my current pump. I'm looking to replace the sand filter with a Pentair 520 cartridge filter. I'm looking to add a SWG. I'm also looking to remove the troublesome multivalve with the new setup.

    This is what my pad looks like and my current equipment. I would really like to clean up the pad when I install the new equipment. I just don't know where to start. I have never worked with the PVC, but I feel comfortable that I can do this. I spent alot of time on youtube watching videos, and I am comfortable sweating copper pipe. My pipes are very close to the ground so I may have to dig down to add new pipe. I know nothing is fixed to the pad, so I wonder if I have to add a pad on top of the cement and or screw things down? I also have no idea if I am running 220 or not.

    I'm looking for opinions for exactly what I should do to get my pad and pipes not only looking professional, but set up for longevity and efficiency.
    When I inherited this pool I believe a spa had been removed and there was an old rusted heater which I had removed. You can see the residual pipes. This is what the pipe set up looks like.



    below is the pipe coming from the former heater:


    The next two photos below are the current pump and motor.






    This is a close up of the pool pump motor. :


    This is the pump for the polaris. I hope I can fix the leak by reconnecting.:


    The motor for this pump:


    Finally the real old sand filter. I remember trying to look this up a couple of years ago. I have no idea if they are still in business or who bought them?:


    I also will be adding a salt water chlorine generator. I went out to buy sodium hypochlorite yesterday, and it was a real pain in the but. For example, at home depot, they do not list the percentages on the bottles for their workforce brand. I was there trying to access this site on my phone to find out, and the people there although nice, really were not helpful. Then at another store, I found that bottles of 10% cost more per ounce of chlorine than the 6% bottles. Then there was no way to find out how old the jugs of chlorine were. After this lesson, I think the convenience of the generator is what I am looking for.
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  10. Back To Top    #10
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    There are a number of things you could do to clean up the equipment pad, but all of the ones I see are relatively minor. It is often best to not mess with something that is working, and only change the things you need to change.

    The largest of the minor issues is unfortunately the most difficult. It would be really nice to get better access to the pump strainer basket, but that requires moving just about everything.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  11. Back To Top    #11
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    stompper3,

    Head loss is not a constant. It varies with flow rate. So when you down size a pump the head loss is reduced as well which is why efficiency goes up. So using the head loss from the old pump may not give you the correct answer.

    For a 28000 gallon pool your minimum flow rate should be for an 8 hour turnover or 58 GPM. Any pump should be able to deliver that on all but the worst plumbing even 1 1/2" plumbing.

    Note that the 3/4 HP full rated Whisperflo uses more energy on high speed than both the 1 HP and 1.5 HP SuperPump. The label HP on pumps is not all that useful in determining the actual energy usage of the pump. However, the head curves can be a good indicator. Higher head curves generally use more energy.

    It looks like you have the 1 HP SuperPump so if you get the two speed version, you will have the most efficient two speed pump on the market. Any other two speed IG pump will be an up size and not a down size. Plus you already know that it has enough flow rate correct?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Mark,

    Yes the current pump does have enough flow for me with the equipment you see.

    It appears you are suggesting I look at the two speed superpump. I hear you loud and clear. I went back and looked at the head curves for the Whisperflo and it did seem a bit over sized, but the one that seemed just right, the 1/2 horsepower only comes in a one speed.

    I just hate that I cannot find the information that would be of interest to me on the Hayward web site. In my opinion the information they provide to consumers is not good at all. This was one of the reasons I chose not to consider Hayward. It looks as though this Hayward is the best pump for my application.

    I'm not sure there is much of a difference between the major brands in the cartridge filters (except for the round ones with the real expensive filters) but should I stay with my initial choice of the Pentair 520, or is there any benefit to consider the Hayward SwimClear 525 sqft?
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  13. Back To Top    #13
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Believe it or not, the WFE-2, Whisperflo 1/2 HP, is a slightly larger pump than the 1 HP SuperPump.

    However, if you are leaning toward Pentair, then the SF-N2-3/4A SuperFlo is comparible to the 1 HP SuperPump in terms of head curve and power usage. As for the filter, I don't think you can go wrong with either one.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    I just noticed that JasonLion has a new thread discussing the efficiency of the 2 speed pumps:

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/the-m...mp-t35798.html

    I'm really interested in seeing how things are hashed out in that discussion. I like the comparison of cost/gallon pumped as it makes efficiency very clear. However, I think comparisons really need to be done using a standard head and showing costs for each pump, pumping the same amount of water. For example, cost per gallon pumped at 20 gallons, 50 gallons and 100 gallons so each pump can be compared equally.

    In the mean time, I'm going back to look at the Superflo now. I'm leaning towards brands based on what I read in these forums. From personal experience, I have a pump that cracked somewhere between the basket and impeller. I was told it could not be repaired. It is Hayward. It is a bit loud, but it may be because of installation? I have read alot about Pentair and Jandy with their variable speed pumps. I would love to have one of those, but I am really upset with the way they have handled the electronic controller issue. It makes no sense to buy an expensive machine that is only good for a couple years. I read so many complaints about this issue. There is alot of information out there based on individual experience, but not much as far as controlled comparisons, other than what is hashed out here by the experts on this forum. There is no "consumer reports" type of comparison that addresses the differences of these pumps that I could find.

    I think for me, efficiency is very important. After this I think quality of the product, meaning longevity, would probably be the next important factor. Then I think the level of noise would be next. Following this I think warranty, and manufacturer response to problems would be the next most important. Paying more for an efficient pump that is quiet and lasts a long time would be fine, but I have to see that the extra cost is backup up with some proof or data.
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    However, I think comparisons really need to be done using a standard head and showing costs for each pump, pumping the same amount of water.
    The cost comparisons should really be done with constant plumbing and not constant head. They are not the same. A pool's plumbing does not change with a change in pump. However, the head loss can change.

    This is primarily why the energy factor of gallons/watt-hr is the direct comparion of the pump's performance on the SAME plumbing. So a higher gallons/watt-hr will result in lower energy costs no matter what size pool. The amount of savings though depends on the size of pool.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    I figured I would call Pentair to ask some questions about their pumps. Using the web site, it was nearly impossible to find a phone number to call. I had to use a search engine. I waited about 20 minutes before someone came on the line. I explained my question concerning efficiency and when I asked if she could help, her answer was, "I'll try." I then asked if there was anyone there who was tech savvy and who could help me with more technical questions. She said one moment and then put me back in the cue. After about 45 minutes a very nice guy came on. To sum things up, he said that the Whisperflo pumps a whole lot more water than the Superflo. The Superflo was designed as a drop in replacement for the Hayward Superpump, but overall the Whisperflo is a better pump. He said he did not know a whole lot about the competition, Hayward Superpump.

    Now I really can't fault the guy I talked with, but in my opinion, one of the most important things in business is to know your competition, what they are doing and their products. It does not matter if you are in sales or in technical support. I was disappointed he did not know about the competition.

    He did emphasize that I should go back and compare the head curves. I think I am slowly learning that unlike in comparing other products like cars that have many variables to consider, when dealing with pumps, the head curves rule and everything else is secondary. He also correctly pointed out that when making as many pumps as they do, even a small percentage of failures can be a large amount of product.

    So I went back and read this thread again. My plumbing stays the same (makes sense), and if I use the Hayward 2 speed 1 hp Superpump my head stays the same at high speed because it is an identical size motor to the 1 hp Superpump motor I have now. The only way to decrease the head in my system would be to use a smaller pump or change the pipes. However, with a two speed pump, when I decrease the RPM in slow speed my flow rate decrease because my pump is pumping slower, and therefore my head should decrease with the decreased flow. I assume this is where the "lower" head curves come in, in the diagrams where they show the curves for the 2 speed pumps at low speed. This is why the stopping head, or the head at 0 flow is much lower than the height of the curve at 0 flow at high speed.

    So by getting the same size Hayward 1 hp Superpump and getting one with a second speed that is 1/2 the speed that the single speed pump is set at, I get the same exact flow rate I already have when using high speed on the new 2 speed pump. This allows me to turn the pool over as fast as I can now and do other things like vacuum. The bonus is that I get my savings by being able slow my new pump with the 2 speed motor down. By slowing the pump down, I decrease my flow thereby decreasing my head curve. I save money using the lower speed and less energy to run the pump, but at the same time I also get increased efficiency by decreasing the head which comes from a lower flow. In this case of going from a pump with a 1 speed motor to the same exact pump with a 2 speed motor I become more efficient and save money. Because I already know that a Hayward 1hp pump works in my system because the head in my pipes and filter is constant, I can replace my current pump with the same 1 hp motor pump without a problem. I need no more power or flow than I already have at high speed.

    Considering the Pentair Whisperflo, although it has the same 1 hp rating, we know it is a larger pump because because it's head curve tells us so. The one hp Pentair Whisperflow has a head curve that starts at 0 flow at over 80 feet of pressure with a potential maximum flow of almost 120 gal/min. The Hayward 1hp Superpump has a lower head curve that starts at 0 flow at 60 feet of water with a max potential flow rate of only about 85 gal/minute. Because the Pentair 1 hp Whisperflow is "larger" and has a higher head curve, it is less efficient than my current 1 hp Hayward Superpump. For me, the 1 hp Pentair Whisperflo is a larger pump than I need at this time even though it is also a 1 hp pump like the one I have.

    Going to the Pentair Superflow 3/4 (1) HP which is supposed to be a direct replacement for the Hayward 1 hp Superpump, has no advantages in efficiency as the head curve is slightly higher meaning it is a slightly larger pump.

    For me, there would be no advantage to going to the Pentair Superflo direct replacement for my Hayward Superpump because the Pentair Superflo is not MORE efficient. I would get the Pentair Superflow if I just liked the Pentair brand better, if that pump had a better warranty, if that pump had a significantly lower price, or if that pump had an additional feature that I needed that the Hayward pump did not have such as being quieter or having a larger basket etc.

    For me, getting the Pentair 1hp Whisperflow has no benefit in my pool set up. It is a larger less efficient pump than the one I currently have and also the 2 speed version of the one I currently have. Yes, the 1hp Whisperflo pumps alot more water than the Hayward Superpump I have, but the pump I have pumps all the water I need at this time. The Pentair Whisperflow is a great pump that pumps alot of water and one that will fit in my pool, but it is giving me more water pumping than I need and doing it less efficiently than what I have. Just like the Pentair Superflo, the only reason for me to change to the Whisperflow in my case would be if I just liked the Pentair brand better, if the Pentair Whisperflow pump had a better warranty, if that pump had a significantly lower price, or if that pump had an additional feature that I needed that the Hayward pump I currently have did not have such as being quieter or having a larger basket etc.

    I hope I got this right Mark. Thanks for being patient with me
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  17. Back To Top    #17
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Whisperflo pumps a whole lot more water than the Superflo. The Superflo was designed as a drop in replacement for the Hayward Superpump, but overall the Whisperflo is a better pump.
    But here is the fallacy in his statement. While, it is true that the Whisperflo moves water faster than the Superflo on a given plumbing system, what is not true is that the efficiency of the pump is better. The CEC data confirms that the SuperFlo has a higher gallons/watt-hr than the Whisperflo of the same THP on the same plumbing system (or at least close to the same plumbing system). So even though the Whisperflo moves water faster, that is not necessarily a good thing. The slower the flow rate, the more efficient it is to move water, not to mention your filter works better at low flow rates. This is why an Intelliflo is so efficient at low speed. From a pure efficiency point of view, a pump that has a lower flow rate on a given plumbing system, will usually be more efficient. Physics confirms this, the CEC data confirms this and not to mention it is logical. This is also why the mileage of car decreases with increasing speed.

    Also, I believe that the hydraulic design of a pump does not vary much between pump models and/or manufactures. So if two pumps have identical head curves and use the same motors, they will also use the same amount of energy even if they are built by different manufactures. However, you will find that the head curves themselves are going to different for different manufactures but they all use the same guidlines and design techniques when designing the wet end. There are subtle changes that might make a small difference but the main difference between pumps is the head curve. This is what primarily determines the energy efficiency of the pump. Even the motors of similar THP have very similar efficiencies and don't contribute much to the overal efficiency of the pump. So I know I sound like a broken record but it will be the head curve of the pump that has the biggest impact on the overall efficiency of the pump.

    There may be other aspects of the Whisperflo design that makes it a "better pump" but I would have asked the tech exactly why it is a "better pump" and to back it with actual measurement data. IMHO, I think they are told by marketing and management to say the Whisperflo is better because it is a more expensive pump and margins are probably better so they would like to sell more.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Mark, I snuck in an edit to my post above. You posted as I was editing and I'm not sure you noticed I changed my post. I agree with you 100% that the guy was toeing the party line. I did not push it when he did not back up his comments, as I did not expect him to. I really wish they would back up the party line with some controlled studies.
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Just an update to my search as I finally finished my project.

    I was about to purchase the Hayward superpump 2 speed, but at the time of purchase I decided to get a variable speed pump. It was about twice the price of the Hayward pump. I went with the Jandy FloPro VS (variable speed). The FloPro was one of my original choices to look at. This pump, the VS version is new to the market. I was uneasy about the Pentair models because of problems with the controller/computer built into the pump if it went bad, not being able to replace.

    The Jandy FloPro VS had a remote controller that was attached with a cord. You cannot operate the pump directly at the pump.

    I purchased based on lowest price as I was installing myself. No one within 40 miles of my city sells this product although they could order it. So I purchased on-line.

    The installation was a breeze. It would have been an easy switch out except I dub up the PVC and redid the pipes. I also changed out 25 year old wireing to the box. I also had to redo the grounding and wires. I had no idea how important this step was after reading online. All I had to do was put the two hot and one ground into the easy screw down plug in the back of the pump. The next step was to flip some switches, 1and2 up and 3and4 down (detailed many times in the instructions). The wires to the remote were attaced to the pump. I purchased some PVC tubing to run along the house and drilled through the door frame to get the wire into the garage. The wire was about 3 feet short so I purchased some wire and it was an easy 4 wire splice and insert into the controller box, about the size of a thermostat.

    The pump worked for about 2 weeks and then one morning the controller was no longer on. I called Zodiac telling them the controller was no longer working and they sent me out a new one. I hooked it up and it did not work. I went out and bought an electrical meter and checked everything and changed out the wires and figured it was probably something in the electric engine.

    It took a couple days of emailing Zodiac who finally told me to contact a local repair shop. They said it would be covered as long as the problem was not caused by my installation. This is where the problem came up. The closest place to me was about 35 miles away. That company was still on the web site as an authorized repair shop although they had stopped doing this the previous summer. It appears that the small amount paid for service calls was a losing proposition for many calls, especially for calls at my distance. Makes sense. The next closest place was 60 miles.

    I eventually called Zodiac and they were very nice and after checking to find if there was someone to come to my house, called me back and said they were shipping me a new pump. All they would ask is that I return the old one and they sent a call tag. The new pump arrived in about a week (good thing it is winter here or I would have a green blob in the pool). The new pump was hooked up and is working like a dream.

    I put on a flow meter and with the pump working at about 1200 RPM the flow is between 30-35 and at priming I just checked the flow at 50-55. I have 1 1/2 inch pipes without any water falls or heating systems.

    The best thing about this pump is that at 1200 RPM, you cannot hear it. You have to touch it to see that it is on.

    I also purchased a new booster pump. This is a funny story. When I finished installing the FloPro VS and changing out all the pipes including those to the booster, I turned on the booster and it did not work. I was ****** that I just paid for a new main pump and now I had to go buy another booster. Well I purchased the Hayward 6060 to replace the Pentair that was there. It was advertized to be quieter and more efficient than the other pumps. Well, I installed it and had to change out the 3/4 inch pipes to 1 1/2 inch pipes to the pump. I then turned the new pump on and guess what? It also was not working. I was pretty frustrated having had bad luck with just about everything I was doing. Well, to make a long story short, I had inadvertently piped the inlet and outlet wrong. I felt like a real idiot, but it was pretty funny. I redid the pipes and convinced myself that the old pump really had to be replaced anyway.

    The booster pump is so much louder than the FloPro VS. It is quieter than my old Pentair booster, but the booster is loud. The FloPro is extremely quiet. Even at priming all you hear is the whiz of RPM and this is even quieter than the booster.

    I plan on leaving the pump on 24/7, but I can program it to go on and off at different times directly from the controller that comes with the FloPro. My pool is about 28,000 so at 30 gallons/minute I have a turnover of the pool every 15.5 hours. I'm sure I can go even lower on the rate.

    I also installed the CL580 cartridge filter. It does not register a pressure on the meter when the pump is at 1200 RPM. When priming, it registers about 10PSI.
    JPete
    Columbia, Missouri
    13600 gallons
    24' x 48" Round AGP. 1.5 hp/12 amp ecokleer pump. 22" ecokleer sand filter.

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: At least 5 Pumps appear to work as a replacement.

    Great story. I'm glad I read it, I'm even more happy that you got everything sorted out and are happy with it.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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