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Thread: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

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    How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    I am new to this forum, (actually my first post) so please bear with me if I do not know all of the standard rules yet. I have been using EZ Pool. (I know, not good according to this forum) I am considering the BBB method now.

    I have a 15,300 gal,
    16' x 32' Vinyl In Ground Pool (No SWG)
    Sand Filter (don't know the flow rate)
    1-1/2HP Superflo Pump
    Automatic Chlorinator
    Polaris Automatic Cleaner

    After several days of rain my pool got a little out of control. I had green algea and very cloudy water. I have had the water tested at a Pool Store with their recommendations. The ALK, PH, Chlorine and CH were off.

    The Pool Store Read Out is a follows:
    TC - 0.0
    FC - 0.0
    PH - 6.4 - add 2lbs. of PH Plus (Goal 7.2 - 7.8)
    TA - 40 - add 13lbs 8oz. Alkalinity Plus (Goal 80 - 120)
    CH - 75 - add 26lbs. 4oz. Calcium Up (Goal 200 - 400)
    Stablizer - 0 - add 6lbs. 4oz. Conditioner (Goal 30 - 100)
    Algea - Green - add 24oz. Algea Control
    Algea Shock 0.0 - add 2lbs. ShockWave or use 3lbs. Super ShockWave

    I have the TA pretty much in check now at 100, but need to raise the PH without raising the ALK any more. How can I acheive this?

    Their recommendations were to:
    balance the pool first by raising the PH and ALK.
    Then use Calcium Up
    Then Stabilizer
    Then Shock
    Then add Chlorine
    Then add Algea Control

    I would like recommendations from those on here using the BBB method on steps to be taken.

    Thanks in advance and looking forward to learning the BBB process and telling the Pool Store GOOD BYE.
    Like a Mountain Stream - In matters of Style, you may change with the Flow. In matters of Principal, Stand like a ROCK.

    15,300 gal, 16' x 32' Vinyl In Ground Pool (No SWG)
    Sand Filter (don't know the flow rate)
    1-1/2HP Superflo Pump

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    You want to raise the PH to at least 7.2 right away, even if that means raising the TA more than you want to. Borax is the best way to raise PH when you don't want to raise the TA too much. It would have been better if you raised the PH to 7.2 first, and then raised the TA.

    You have a vinyl liner pool, so there is no need to raise CH at all. Likewise there is no need to algaecide, which is pretty much ineffective against an active algae bloom.

    After you have the PH and TA sorted out, it is best to start raising CYA, targeting a level of 30 to start with, right around the same time you start shocking the pool. Shock the pool according to the directions in Pool School.

    By the by shocking is a process involving raising the FC level to a specific level and holding it there until you achieve your goals, not a product that you add and are done with. Various products sold as "shock" are simply different forms of chlorine.

    It would be nice if you could put your basic pool specs in your signature.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    JasonLion,

    First and foremost THANKS.

    I know now that I should have raised the PH first, Live and learn. I will start with the PH ASAP. Borax is the 20 Mule Team box, correct? I have some but will get more as needed.

    When I start raising the CYA, do I add the CYA first, then shock the pool, do at the same time or does it matter what steps?

    Yes I have read the fact that "SHOCK" is a VERB, not a NOUN. You "shock" the pool water, not add "shock". On this forum, what is the chemical referred to when shocking the pool? ie: I am going to shock the pool by adding ______ .

    I will add my pool info to my sig.

    Thanks again
    Like a Mountain Stream - In matters of Style, you may change with the Flow. In matters of Principal, Stand like a ROCK.

    15,300 gal, 16' x 32' Vinyl In Ground Pool (No SWG)
    Sand Filter (don't know the flow rate)
    1-1/2HP Superflo Pump

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    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Quote Originally Posted by Redman
    JasonLion,

    First and foremost THANKS.

    I know now that I should have raised the PH first, Live and learn. I will start with the PH ASAP. Borax is the 20 Mule Team box, correct? I have some but will get more as needed.
    Yes, and there is a pic of the newer box in the visual encyclopedia in Pool School.

    When I start raising the CYA, do I add the CYA first, then shock the pool, do at the same time or does it matter what steps?
    You can do both at the same time. First add CYA (enough to reach 30) using the sock method. Then, since your CYA is presently zero, your shock level is 10. So, add enough liquid chlorine/bleach to reach 10FC. You can use the PoolCalculator.com to figure doses. If you need help or want confirmation on dose amount, post back in this thread.

    Yes I have read the fact that "SHOCK" is a VERB, not a NOUN. You "shock" the pool water, not add "shock". On this forum, what is the chemical referred to when shocking the pool? ie: I am going to shock the pool by adding ______ .
    Well, we suggest you use liquid chlorine or bleach. No side effects with those.

    I will add my pool info to my sig.
    Welcome to the forum

    Thanks again
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    btw, just to confirm, get the pH and TA right before you start adding CYA or shocking the pool
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    btw, just to confirm, get the pH and TA right before you start adding CYA or shocking the pool
    Got it.

    I am going to be working on the PH and TA tomorrow. I have the jets pointed up to create small bubbles right now and will let the pump and jets run this way overnight. I will check the PH and TA in the morning again. As needed, I will add Borax to raise the PH while checking the TA also. I am kinda new at raising the PH and TA at the same time. As JasonLion stated, I should have raised the PH first and then dealt with the TA, but hey, I'm learning. I will get the PH to the correct level, then again deal with the TA until all is well. After that I wil begin working on the CYA and chlorine (I have both on hand).

    I have read that the only way to raise the PH without raising the TA is areation or muratic acid, is this correct?
    Also, is the PH level more important than the TA? if so, can you educate me as to why that is?
    Like a Mountain Stream - In matters of Style, you may change with the Flow. In matters of Principal, Stand like a ROCK.

    15,300 gal, 16' x 32' Vinyl In Ground Pool (No SWG)
    Sand Filter (don't know the flow rate)
    1-1/2HP Superflo Pump

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Aeration is the only way to raise PH without raising TA. Muriatic acid lowers both PH and TA. Keep in mind that aeration is a relatively slow process. When the PH is low enough to damage the pool you don't want to sit around waiting for aeration to get the PH to where you need it.

    In some sense PH is more important than TA but they are closely linked together. If the PH is too low you can damage the pool and if it is too high it can cause calcium scaling which is difficult/expensive to remove. If TA is out of range you will have trouble keeping the PH in range, leading to the problems already mentioned.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    I have read that the only way to raise the PH without raising the TA is areation or muratic acid, is this correct?
    The only way to raise pH without raising TA is aeration.

    Muriatic Acid lowers BOTH pH and TA.
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Aeration is the only way to raise PH without raising TA. Muriatic acid lowers both PH and TA. Keep in mind that aeration is a relatively slow process. When the PH is low enough to damage the pool you don't want to sit around waiting for aeration to get the PH to where you need it.

    In some sense PH is more important than TA but they are closely linked together. If the PH is too low you can damage the pool and if it is too high it can cause calcium scaling which is difficult/expensive to remove. If TA is out of range you will have trouble keeping the PH in range, leading to the problems already mentioned.
    OK.........I will let the jets aerate the pool overnight and then begin adding borax tomorrow morning until I get it balanced, while testing TA as I go. I understand a low PH level can cause damage. Boy, never new there was so much to balancing the PH and TA together. Always learning.

    Thx
    Like a Mountain Stream - In matters of Style, you may change with the Flow. In matters of Principal, Stand like a ROCK.

    15,300 gal, 16' x 32' Vinyl In Ground Pool (No SWG)
    Sand Filter (don't know the flow rate)
    1-1/2HP Superflo Pump

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Shouldn't the OP be more focused on getting pH right and then immeidayely adding CYA and shocking before worrying about TA? Seems like getting the TA locked in will take some time and meanwhile they have an algae problem...
    15,600 Gallon, 16' x 32' In-Ground Vinyl Pool
    Pentair VS 3050 pump, Quad DE 60 filter and SunTouch controller
    8 gallon Liquidator, Aquatherm EcoSun Solar Panels, 2 wheel ThePoolCleaner

  11. Back To Top    #11
    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Quote Originally Posted by carlscan26
    Shouldn't the OP be more focused on getting pH right and then immeidayely adding CYA and shocking before worrying about TA? Seems like getting the TA locked in will take some time and meanwhile they have an algae problem...
    That would be good if his TA was high, but his TA is too low, and it needs to be adjusted along with the pH first.
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Quote Originally Posted by carlscan26
    Shouldn't the OP be more focused on getting pH right and then immeidayely adding CYA and shocking before worrying about TA? Seems like getting the TA locked in will take some time and meanwhile they have an algae problem...
    Yes, Yes

    This is where the post started. As JasonLion pointed out in the very first reply, I should have started with the PH first then the TA. Since I did the TA first, I am no focused on raising the PH FIRST. Then dealing with the TA, next CYA, then chlorine.

    Thanks
    Like a Mountain Stream - In matters of Style, you may change with the Flow. In matters of Principal, Stand like a ROCK.

    15,300 gal, 16' x 32' Vinyl In Ground Pool (No SWG)
    Sand Filter (don't know the flow rate)
    1-1/2HP Superflo Pump

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    Quote Originally Posted by carlscan26
    Shouldn't the OP be more focused on getting pH right and then immeidayely adding CYA and shocking before worrying about TA? Seems like getting the TA locked in will take some time and meanwhile they have an algae problem...
    That would be good if his TA was high, but his TA is too low, and it needs to be adjusted along with the pH first.
    It was low at the start but then they got it to 100. And they now need to raise the pH which will further raise the TA unless they aerate which Jason recommended against because of how long it will take.

    I think you just supported my point since the TA is now in their goal range and not 40.

    If it was me at this point I'd dial in the pH and get started on cya and shocking and deal with the high TA once the algae is cleared up. The ph will drift up faster so you'll use more MA until the TA is balanced but with the pH fixed you can get started on the algae which to me is a higher priority than TA.
    15,600 Gallon, 16' x 32' In-Ground Vinyl Pool
    Pentair VS 3050 pump, Quad DE 60 filter and SunTouch controller
    8 gallon Liquidator, Aquatherm EcoSun Solar Panels, 2 wheel ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    OK guys, I've got the ph right, the TA is close, started adding CYA and will check in a few days, also shocked the pool.

    This morning the pool looks clean, no algea, but the water is a very pretty Turquoise, but cloudy and not clear.

    What should I do next to get the water sparkling clear? Or do I need to just wait and let the pump run and do it's thing?
    Like a Mountain Stream - In matters of Style, you may change with the Flow. In matters of Principal, Stand like a ROCK.

    15,300 gal, 16' x 32' Vinyl In Ground Pool (No SWG)
    Sand Filter (don't know the flow rate)
    1-1/2HP Superflo Pump

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    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Carefully follow the shock directions in Pool School until you meet three criteria that let you know you are done shocking:

    See red lines in my sig .......
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Shocking is a process, you need to keep it at shock level, and keep running the filter it may take a while but it will get there.
    If you have not read this already http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-...king_your_pool, it is a good read to help you.
    15ft round above ground pool (6600 gallons)
    Sand filter
    Jandy gas heater
    Intermatic timer

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Shocking:
    1. Measure the FC level

    2. Add enough chlorine to bring FC up to shock level (or a little higher)

    3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 as frequently as practical, but not more than once per hour, and not less than twice a day, until:
    A. CC is 0.5 or lower;
    B. An overnight FC loss test shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less;
    C. And the water is clear.

    4. Brush the entire pool once a day

    5. Backwash or clean the filter as needed
    OK..I have a few more questions:

    1. I am in the process of adding CYA and will not know the CYA level for a few days so, How do I determine the shock level?

    2. Should I continue using liquid bleach or use a pool shock treatment?

    3. How do I check CC level. I currently have the PH and ALK in check now.

    I'm still learning and may continue to ask basic questions, but I am eager to learn as much as possible.

    Thanks
    Like a Mountain Stream - In matters of Style, you may change with the Flow. In matters of Principal, Stand like a ROCK.

    15,300 gal, 16' x 32' Vinyl In Ground Pool (No SWG)
    Sand Filter (don't know the flow rate)
    1-1/2HP Superflo Pump

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Base your shock level off of your target CYA. - basically shock as if you already are at that CYA. Good luck!
    15,600 Gallon, 16' x 32' In-Ground Vinyl Pool
    Pentair VS 3050 pump, Quad DE 60 filter and SunTouch controller
    8 gallon Liquidator, Aquatherm EcoSun Solar Panels, 2 wheel ThePoolCleaner

  19. Back To Top    #19
    dattia's Avatar
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Liquid chlorine (bleach) is all you need to shock your pool, but be aware, you may need lots of it during the shock process. You will need much less for maintenance.

    I would say at this point, you need to get yourself a good test kit, it is the single-most important item for taking control of your pool. Most people here have the TF-100 test kit, it is available for purchase here on this site. Taylor also has a good test kit available, but I am not sure if it can be purchased locally or online. The reason for this amped up test kit is that while you are shocking, and after, the BBB method requires chlorine at greater levels than most of the store bought tests can measure as it is based on chlorinating your pool as it relates to your CYA levels.
    27' round AG
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  20. Back To Top    #20
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    Re: How to raise PH withouth Raising ALK

    Quote Originally Posted by Redman
    ...........
    1. I am in the process of adding CYA and will not know the CYA level for a few days so, How do I determine the shock level?
    Use your current CYA level for shocking. 24 hours after CYA is dissolved, assume it is there and increase your shock level accordingly.


    2. Should I continue using liquid bleach or use a pool shock treatment?
    Best to use liquid chlorine/bleach.

    3. How do I check CC level. I currently have the PH and ALK in check now.
    You need an FAS/DPD kit. It is included in the recommended kits & also sold separately. See Test Kit Comparison in Pool School.

    I'm still learning and may continue to ask basic questions, but I am eager to learn as much as possible.

    Thanks
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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