New borate drop test at piscines-apollo vs. test strip

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Yev said:
JoyfulNoise, along those lines, here is what I think is the up to date full version of what you are doing, with a couple of questions that I would love to have answered at the end. maybe you or Chemgeek can read through and tidy up for me.


Chemicals Needed
Taylor R-0007 - Part of TF-100
Taylor R-0009 - Part of TF-100 TA Test
Taylor R-0010 - Part of TF-100
Bromothymol Blue (BTB) - From Amazon
Mannitol - From Amazon

Test Procedure
1.) Collect a 25ml sample of pool water .
2.) Add 2 drops of R-0007 to neutralize the chlorine
3.) Add 5 drops of R-0009
4.) Add 6 drops of BTB until the water turns yellow.
5.) Add 2 drops of R-0010 until the water just turns blue.
6.) Add 1 level spoonful (1/8 teaspoon) of Mannitol. If the water has boron/borates, then the sample will turn yellow.
7.) Add R-0010 drops until the water just turns blue. Record how many rops of R-0010 are used.
8.) Calculate ppm boron/borates by multiplying the number of drops of R-0010 used only in step 7 by 7.9 for total ppm

Alternative Test Method
1.) Collect either 25ml, 44ml, or 50ml
8.) Calculate ppm boron/borates by using these formulas
For 25ml sample, each drop of R-0010 used only in step 7 equals 7.9ppm
For 44ml sample, each drop of R-0010 used only in step 7 equals 4.5ppm
For 50ml sample, each drop of R-0010 used only in step 7 equals 4.0ppm

Questions About Test
1.) The level spoonful that was mentioned, is that the scoop that comes with the TF-100 kit for the FAS-DPD test, or is this a new measuring device that was added to the kit?
2.) Is the use of Boron and Borates synonomous?
3.) For the Mannitol powder, would it be possible to buy this one which seems to be the same, just 4 ounces rather than a pound, so it is a bit cheaper.
4.) For the BTB, there is this option that is 0.1% rather than the option which is 0.04%, so perhaps this is better. The downside is that I am not sure this type of bottle dropper will work well or not.
Click to expand...

Don't buy the BTB in line #4 from the above post, it is not the right chemical for this test.

I noticed that the BTB in the last line is not Bromothymol Blue it is Bromophenol Blue and I believe it will not work with this test. The color change is nearly the same yellow to blue for both chemicals, but the pH range is not workable with the Bromophenol Blue. The Bromophenol Blue changes color when the pH is 3.0-4.6, while Bromothymol Blue changes color when the pH is 6.0-7.6 range which works with our pool water.
 
You are correct that the link in "this option" is to the wrong chemical. The original link to Amazon to 0.04% Bromothymol Blue is the right stuff. I don't see it on Amazon as anything other than a 0.04% solution. If one wants more intensity of color from the dye, then one can add more dye to the sample in step #4.
 
I'm sorry to revive this, but.....

I see JoyFulNoise is using this, however it ended up. Others have stated throughout this long thread some things that worked, others that didn't, and everyone did all this work to figure it all out.

However, could the "Is this your final answer?" post be made somewhere, maybe made a sticky or put in pool school, or even give a wrap-up here at the end us non-chemists can grasp? I can buy regents and count drops, but all the preceding back and forth went "ZIP" right over my head :) While borates being at an exact number may not be all that big of a deal, I would like to have the ability to get a true number at least a couple times a year.

Otherwise, thanks to all of you figuring this stuff out. Maybe one of you could just do a mail-in get your borates checked service :)
 
Sorry folks, I saw this post and did not respond...things have been a bit hectic lately. Here's the Summary of how to test for borates using a drop-based test protocol :

Equipment Needed
SpeedStir (is really, REALLY useful!!!)
50mL Beaker* (can be purchased on Amazon HERE)
A 1/8th teaspoon measure (can be purchased on Amazon HERE)

*The 50mL beaker can sit on the SpeedStir allowing easy mixing of reagents

Chemicals Needed
Taylor R-0007 - Chlorine neutralizer reagent
Taylor R-0009 - Sulfuric acid reagent
Taylor R-0010 - Sodium hydroxide calcium buffer reagent
Bromothymol Blue (BTB) - From Amazon HERE
Mannitol Powder - From Amazon HERE

Test Procedure
1.) Collect a 25ml sample of pool water
2.) Add 2 drops of R-0007 to neutralize the chlorine
3.) Add 5 drops of R-0009 to lower pH and neutralize carbonate alkalinity
4.) Add 6 drops of BTB until the water turns yellow. You can use more than 6 drops if the color is too faint. The drop count here will not affect the results of the test.
5.) Add 2 drops of R-0010 until the water just turns pale blue. This is the hard part - try hard to remember the shade of blue here.
6.) Add 1 level spoonful (1/8 teaspoon) of Mannitol. If the water has boron/borates, then the sample will turn yellow again.
7.) Add R-0010 drops until the water turns into a similar shade of blue from Step 5. Record how many rops of R-0010 are used in this step.
8.) Calculate ppm boron/borates by multiplying the number of drops of R-0010 used only in step 7 by 7.9 for total ppm

Alternative Test Method Volumes
1.) Collect either 25ml or 50ml
8.) Calculate ppm boron/borates by using these formulas
For 25ml sample, each drop of R-0010 used only in step 7 equals 7.9ppm
For 50ml sample, you'll need 3 drops of R-0007 in Step 2, 7 drops of R-0009 in Step 3, 2 level spoonfuls of mannitol (1/4 tsp total) in Step 6 and each drop of R-0010 used only in step 7 equals 4.0ppm

Notes:

*Dechlorinating the sample is important. The bromothymol blue (BTB) dye is sensitive to chlorine and will be bleached by it. 2 to 3 drops of R-0007 is usually more than enough for FC in normal ranges.

*If your pool water has very high levels of TA (>100 ppm), I would suggest experimenting with the the number of drops in Step 3. It is important to get the sample down below the transition point for the BTB indicator and a high TA water sample will make it necessary to use more drops of R-0009.

*The amount of bromotymol blue (BTB) used in Step 4 should be adjusted to give you the best color shade you can see. 6 drops of BTB is just a starting point, use more if needed.

*The R-0010 reagent (sodium hydroxide) has a very STRONG effect on raising the pH. So it should not take much to go from pale yellow to blue in Step 5. You don't want to overshoot this and add lots of R-0010 in this step. It would be easier if the R-0010 were less concentrated but we're stuck with what we have available.

*You can add extra mannitol powder as well. The point is to have excess mannitol powder in solution so that all of the boron reacts with it. Using too little will give you a false-low result.

*Yes, you have to try to remember the shades of blue unfortunately. This isn't a true "end point" titration but rather a color matching titration so there is a bit of subjectivity to it. I would suggest doing the test several times until you feel you are comfortable with it. So stock up on your R-0009 and R-0010 if you only have small quantities.
 
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I'm getting ready to borate my pool, and am buying the things needed to do this drop test rather than buy test strips. I hate strips.

Anyway, is the beaker really necessary? I can do a 25ml sample easily in the included speedstir cylinder. And I'm not sure I'll really care to do a 50ml sample ever, but I could be wrong about that.
 
dartrunner said:
http://www.sciencecompany.com/-P636...rkvAbSC3hwXZ30IiooQFhIeIRmC_DKvn0UaAn2X8P8HAQ

Just wondering if this would work. A little more expensive, but .1%. Including shipping for me, it would be 17.38 from The Science Company vs 11.68 from amazon at .04%.
Click to expand...
It might, but 1 drop of that stuff would be more than twice the 6 drops of the .04% that the directions call for. Honestly the test is tough enough trying to remember which shade of blue you are trying to match in the end, I'm not sure I'd want to mess with myself any more by using something other than what the instructions were written for.
 
Funny, I never saw any of the posts after my initial instructions.

As for the 50mL beaker, it's up to you. It's dirt cheap and you get a more precise result so I think it is worth it. I did the test, just for fun, with 100mL of water and got results that matched up with the smaller water sample sizes...so it's really up to you.

I have not tried the 0.1% BTB but I might buy some just to check it out. I actually have started using more than 6 drops of the 0.04% stuff. I actually just squirt enough of the BTB in until I get a shade of blue that works best in the lighting that I am using. So having more concentrated BTB might work better. The fact is, the BTB does not change the results of the test at all; it's an indicator solution and does not factor into the diol-boron chemistry. So you can use as much as you need to get the color that works best for you.

If you have trouble remembering the shade of blue to look for, take a picture with your cell phone. It works well enough for a color comparison OR, if you want to be really accurate about it, you can use two beakers side by side and truncate the first test after you get the initial blue shade and then do the full test protocol on the second beaker to match it with. Takes more time, but it works well.
 
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Not enough borate users to justify it and it's technically not part of the official Taylor test kit so....no deal (I've asked before ;) )

Did you ever try the sorbitol or xylitol?
 
Not sure yet. Will be testing shortly....
Hello All,
I've completed the test. I ran the test using Mannitol powder, Erythitol, and Ideal sugar substitute (xylitol, maltodextrin, Sucralose). I'm attaching images of the containers and I'll provide the UPC codes.
Obviously my all means use the mannitol power, it's available from Amazon and the price is reasonable. My better half order the sugar substitutes so I don't know what she paid.
I paid $23.40 1lb of the mannitol powder delivered.
Ideal is $10 for 10.6 oz. (worked, drop count was the same.)
The Erythitol is $10 for 1 lb. (worked, drop count was different)

I followed the directions that are listed a few post up and listed below:
1.) Collect a 25ml sample of pool water
2.) Add 2 drops of R-0007 to neutralize the chlorine
3.) Add 5 drops of R-0009 to lower pH and neutralize carbonate alkalinity
4.) Add 6 drops of BTB until the water turns yellow. You can use more than 6 drops if the color is too faint. The drop count here will not affect the results of the test.
5.) Add 2 drops of R-0010 until the water just turns pale blue. This is the hard part - try hard to remember the shade of blue here.
6.) Add 1 level spoonful (1/8 teaspoon) of Mannitol. If the water has boron/borates, then the sample will turn yellow again.
7.) Add R-0010 drops until the water turns into a similar shade of blue from Step 5. Record how many drops of R-0010 are used in this step.
8.) Calculate ppm boron/borates by multiplying the number of drops of R-0010 used only in step 7 by 7.9 for total ppm

Couple of notes: my TC is 9, so i used 3 drops of R-0007. My PH is at 7.4 and TA 110. Step 4 took about 8 drops. and Step 5. was a great blue color with only 2 drops of the R-0010.

All 3 (mannitol, Ideal (xylitol), and erythritol) turned the water yellow as expected in step 6.

In step 7 the mannitol and Ideal had the same drop count. The erythritol had a drop count of only 4 till it was the same shade of blue.

First I ran the test with the mannitol, using 25ml., got the drop count of 6. to the same shade. That was my base line. Second was the erythritol drop count was 5, and third was the Ideal, drop count of 6.

This was a limited run and only using 25ml.

One of the issues using the Ideal, is we don't the percentages of Xylitol, maldodextrin and sucralose in the mix. Sorry I don't have straight Xylitol.

Hope someone finds this useful.
 
Last edited:
So I reran the test using the 44ml sample using the mannitol and the Ideal.
Mannitol ended using 10 drops and the Ideal used 9 drops, but the shade of blue was tougher to distinguish with the 44ml sample. The transition between the blue shades is more difficult. Using the 25ml I feel it's easier to see the transition/color match. With the 25ml sample each drop is 7.9ppm and for 44ml is 4.5ppm.
Personally I think 25ml sample is accurate enough.

Again if I was pressed and couldn't wait for the mannitol to arrive the Ideal would work in a pinch to get me in the ball park, but I'd remeasure when the mannitol came in.

Regards,
Bob
 
I just wanted to thank you ALL for this thread, especially NeedMoreSun and JoyfulNoise. I had MeedMoreSun's exact thought after reading page 4. :p My husband and I were never sure about the test strip colors and often it mattered to us the amount of borates between two of them. We really wanted to maintain 50. This forum has been invaluable to us every year since we discovered it for all the various issues we encounter, saving us thousands upon thousands every year in a time where we have few dollars due to excessive medical expenses. It has allowed us to enjoy the luxuries of an inground pool without ANY of the luxury expense. Also, we open a pool up every spring to sparkly baby blue water. Just unbelievable the reliability and consistency of BBB method and troublefreepool wisdom. I can't thank the many members enough. Chem Geek, Water Bear, Jason, to name a few but I am forgetting so many who have patiently helped us each year. You guys rock.

Along with my fresh test kit refills, I am buying the supplies listed in JoyfulNoise's summary post above to give this drop test a whirl this year! Wheeeeee - here we go!
 

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