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Thread: Sabot's Pool Start-up

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    Sabot's Pool Start-up

    Good morning all!

    Well a week has gone by since our new pool's start up (Nov 2 07). Pool school was held on Nov 7 and now we are on our own! (Sort of... we have you! ) The PB added the various chems to the pool over the last week. I took a sample test yesterday of the water (I will post complete numbers today since it's a week later.) which yielded:

    FC: .30
    TC: .90
    PH: 7.1
    AKL: 68

    The PB has put the inline chlorinator into service, with the setting set to max out put of 5. If I recall right, I should use the pucks to build up some CYA then switch over to BBB in about 30 days or as testing indicates the proper amount of CYA. Am I on the right track so far? Since my FC is still low, should I leave it be or add some liquid chlorine to boast a bit (not shock). The wife has invited some friends over so I want to make sure the water is healthy. The solar heating has been just awesome. Last week I was able to raise the temp 11 degrees and then hold it with a solar cover.

    The pump has been running 24/7 for a week. I am getting ready to reduce the pump time as there is little dust still left over from the Pebblesheen to about 12 hours a day for about a week. The robot cleaner has picked up a lot junk as well. I was actually surprised how little dust or debris is left over from the Pebblesheen process. I have two medium size Pecan trees within feet of the pool and they are now starting to loose their leaves. GREAT! (The wife won’t let me cut them down… Maybe I should turn into a little George Washington with my ax?) So I need to continue to run the pumps as the winds dictate. Am I reducing the pump run time too quickly or am I on a good path?

    As always,

    Thanks for your advise!

    Mike
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

  2. Back To Top    #2
    With an SWG, I think you need to get your CYA up faster than pucks will raise it, for the SWG to function properly. Your FC is low, and you have .6 cc's, and if your SWG is maxed out, I see a discrepancy here. I don't know if the CYA helps the FC output of the SWG or not, but you look like you may be headed for trouble. I would get some bleach in there, and also get some CYA
    I also wonder why, in a new plaster pool with SWG, your pH is so low...

    8200 gallon 20' x 48" round vinyl frame pool, manually chlorinated with 10% liquid, salt added to ~2000, 12" sand filter, 1600gph pump, TF100 test kit
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    "Shock" is a process, not a product!

  3. Back To Top    #3

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    Good morning TMQ,

    I don't have a SWG, just a regular chlorine pool. I know why the PH is a bit low, the PB added a little extra acid (test called for 1 pint, he added a gallon) the on Wednesday of this week (I tested the PH on Thursday, the day after the PB added a gallon.)

    I will do a complete test tonight to see what I need to add. I am going to add some bleach tonight as needed. I will add a little at a time so I don't effect the Pebblesheen's finish.

    Thanks for the advise!
    Mike
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

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    Guest
    i dont think he has an swg , i only see inline clorine feeder- like mine, or the bbb with a liquidator.

  5. Back To Top    #5
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    As long as the water is looking good then by all means lower the pump run time. If your system allows it, try setting up two periods of pump run time each day, one during the day and one at night. I wouldn't lower it too much until your chlorine level holds at a higher level, but going down to 16-18 hours a day is very reasonable right now.

    The chlorine level is a bit low and your CC level is just barely past the level where you should start worrying about it, but if that measurement was made in the afternoon it might be alright. When starting up with trichlor tablets the CYA level will stay fairly low for a while and you will lose a fair bit of chlorine to sunlight each day. As long as the water is staying clear and you can measure a higher chlorine level in the morning then you don't necessarily have a problem. The CYA level will be coming up and you should be able to hold a more reasonable chlorine level in the afternoon within a week.

    If the FC level is also low in the morning, or the water starts to look at all cloudy or murky, or the CC level doesn't go down in the next day or two, or you are having several people over to swim, then you should supplement the puck feeder with bleach.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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  6. Back To Top    #6

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    Cool, I was hoping someone would say I could run the pump less then 24/7!

    I hope the CC is not as hard to control in the pool as it is in my hot tub. I don't want to have to shock the pool any time soon since it's so new. The PB stated that shocking the pool impacts the life span of the plaster.

    I still need to get a routine going where I check the water chemistry. What should I check in the morning and what at night? How often? (Daily/weekly....) What time of day should I add chemicals? (Morning/night?)

    Right now I am testing the waters (spa/pool) with 3 differant kits. (ColorQ/TF100/now Basic Pool kit)
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

  7. Back To Top    #7
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    The basic testing routine is chlorine & PH once a day, preferably in the evening. In the first three or four weeks of fresh plaster you may need to test the PH twice a day, depending on how quickly it goes up. In addition you should test everything except CYA once a week. After you have quite a bit more experience with the pool the weekly testing can often switch to every other week. CYA only needs to be tested occasionally, depending on what is happening. Right now you may need to test CYA weekly to figure out when to stop using trichlor. Once the CYA level is set you only need to test it if you think it might have gone down, at the start of the season, after major rains, etc. There are various exceptions, but that is a good basic testing routine to get into.

    It is best to add bleach in the evening, when using bleach. Other than that there are no common chemicals that require specific times of day.

    Chlorine has little effect on plaster at normal shock levels, you have to go very high to affect plaster. However, somewhere around three times shock level can start to corrode metal in contact with the water. Still, I completely agree that there is no need to shock if you are doing everything right, which should be the goal.

    CC is always much more complex to deal with in a hot tub. Outdoor pools hardly ever have CC issues unless you let FC get too low, add certain non-BBB chemicals, or are having algae problems.

    The ColorQ is particularly good at measuring FC, CC and PH, as long as CH is below 500 and FC & CC are below 10. I would use CYA numbers only from the TF-100 and also use the TF-100 if FC or CC is above 10 or CH is at 500 or above. The cheap kit is often fine for daily testing, particularly when you have some experience to know what to expect and how it's readings compare to the others.

    Remember that TA and CH will be coming up on their own for a couple of weeks due to plaster curing. Don't overshoot by bringing them up to your goal numbers too early.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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  8. Back To Top    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabot
    Good morning TMQ,

    I don't have a SWG, just a regular chlorine pool.
    My bad!

    8200 gallon 20' x 48" round vinyl frame pool, manually chlorinated with 10% liquid, salt added to ~2000, 12" sand filter, 1600gph pump, TF100 test kit
    Handy Links: PoolMath, TF-100 Test Kit, Pool School, Chlorine/CYA Chart
    "Shock" is a process, not a product!

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Week two of having the pool filled (topped off on Nov 1). I took readings from my ColorQ, TF100 and took a sample to a local pool store. Here are the results, let me know what you think:

    Water Temp: 79' (Solar Heater)
    ColorQ TF100 Pool Store
    TC: 3.75 4.0 5.0
    FC: 2.64 3.0 5.0
    CC: 1.11 1.0 0.0
    PH: 7.6 7.2 7.2
    Alk: 77 70 60
    CH: 147 110 100
    CYA: 71 60 100
    Copper: - - 0.0
    Total Dissolved Solids: 400

    Pool store recommends 12lbs of Alkalinity Control (Bicarb), 15lbs of Hardness Control (Cal-Chloride)...

    I took my time for the tests, running each at least twice. A few three times just to confirm. The pool store didn't help for their numbers didn't match as closely as I hoped.
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

  10. Back To Top    #10
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    An important thing to keep in mind is that all of these tests have some variability, unpredictability. All of your numbers are more or less the same given the precision of the tests except for the PH test (which is too far off for normal variability to account for).

    The ColorQ and TF-100 agree on TC, FC, and CC within the resolution of the tests. I strongly suspect that the pool store is wrong here. Your FC number is low and your CC number is high. You should be using more chlorine. Try to keep FC at 5 or above. If CC doesn't come down soon you will need to shock the pool.

    On PH, the ColorQ has a reputation for being accurate on PH, yet here is an obvious difference. I am inclined to believe the TF-100 and pool store, but who knows. Either way your PH is fine, but that is a pretty big difference and will matter significantly when the PH goes up. This is the only test where I would worry about the differences in results. There is nothing I know of that should cause the ColorQ to be that far off the Taylor test on PH.

    They all more or less agree on ALK within the resolution of the test. With fresh plaster your alkalinity will still be going up because of the plaster curing. With bleach I suggest ALK between 70 and 90, so don't add anything that will bring it up! In a week or two it will probably be around 90, which is great, though there is some leeway here so no need to worry about it if it is higher or lower than that.

    On CH I am inclined to believe the TF-100/pool store, though it is difficult to say for sure. The difference isn't dramatic as the ColorQ is much less precise on this test. CH will still be coming up because of fresh plaster, but after two weeks your goal should be a little higher than that. I would increase CH to 200 right away (14 or 15 pounds of calcium increaser) and then watch what it is in a week or ten days and raise it from where ever it is then to 300. Are you remembering to do the TF-100 CH test very slowly and swirl throughly between each drop? Some people have problems with this one because the color change can take a while to develop and you should go *quite* slowly near the end and keep adding drops to see if the color continues to change or not (once the color starts changing, drops which causes additional color change count).

    CYA, I guess 60-70 is right. None of the tests are terribly precise, so they could all be "right". This is a good CYA level, personally I would have tried for 50, others might go just a little higher than where you are.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Opps... a bit late... I added the following:

    - 64 oz of Baking Soda. The pool store stated 12 lbs. I was going to wait and see what happens next but I will wait per your instructions for another week or two to see it come up higher. (Does Pebblesheen act the same way as regular Plaster?)

    - 90 oz of 6% Bleach (I turned down the inline puck feeder from max (5) to 3) I really don't want to shock the new pool unless I really... really...really have to. Should raise FC by 2.2. (around 6ppm).

    I have been told that 5ppm chlorine is about as strong as we should swim in. How high is safe enough, I have 2 kids 9yrs and 10yrs.... I don't want to harm them or anyone. Plus, I don't want to close the pool since it's being warmed by the solar and we are swimming!

    I have the same issue with the spa, I just can't get the CC down. I think it's two fold, one the fill water might have something in it? Second, I don't keep the chlorine levels high enough, long enough?

    - 80oz of Calcium increaser (All I had) Pool store said to add in 3 installments, waiting 6 to 8 hours between.

    What is the best way to add the above chems to the pool. I read and the pool store said to mix with pool water (which I did tonight) and introduce the mixture around the returns and in the deep water around the drains. I tried to spread the mixtures out as best as possible. Just to play safe, I brushed the bottom after each mixture just to stir the water a bit down below. I am going to let the pump run until the water is balanced.

    Should I continue to test daily at the same time?

    Am I missing anything?

    Sorry for the questions!

    Thanks a lot for all your help!!!

    Mike
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

  12. Back To Top    #12

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    I didn't have a lot of time this morning so I just tested the chlorine via the ColorQ at (6am):

    FC: 5.60
    TC: 6.84
    CC: 1.24

    I find it amazing when I raised the FC (90oz of 6% bleach from Wally World) that the CC stayed the same.
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

  13. Back To Top    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabot
    Does Pebblesheen act the same way as regular Plaster?
    Yes, just not as strongly. There is plaster between the pebbles, so you get the fresh plaster effect, just less strongly because there is less plaster exposed.

    I would switch away from trichlor completely. You CYA level is good, so it is time to start using only bleach.

    CC can be a little tricky. It tends to form when the chlorine level is too low and it isn't always easy to get rid of. In general, in an outdoor pool, reasonable chlorine levels combined with sunlight will keep the CC levels very low. Some CC is more persistent that others. Sometimes you can't get rid of it without shocking, other times holding reasonable chlorine levels and some sunlight will get rid of it.

    CC is more complex in a spa because there are more contaminants (same number of swimmers but less water). With BBB in a spa it is difficult to keep the FC level high enough all the time, since it can go away fairly quickly at those temperatures. You pretty much need to shock regularly. This is not so much of an issue if the spa is connected to the pool, because you get to spread things across the larger volume of water.

    Calcium increaser should be spread across the surface of the water. You don't want to pre-mix calcium since it can cause small quantities of water to get very hot and perhaps melt your bucket. It is best to go in several steps and not to increase the PH or alkalinity on the same day you are adding calcium. Your calcium saturation is so low you can use larger steps at first and the don't increase alkalinity on the same day rule may not matter as much at first.

    I like to pre-mix baking soda it in a bucket and then pour that through the skimmer. You can spread it directly on the surface of the water but then you may need a little brushing to dissolve any that gets to the bottom. As with practically everything except chlorine, it is best to go in several steps towards your goal.

    The never allow FC to get over 5 ppm rule only applies when you don't have *any* CYA. CYA dramatically slows the action of chlorine, making higher FC levels safer. Chlorine is never totally safe, it is just much safer than the alternatives. With a CYA level of 50 and a FC level of 5 there is about one fiftieth as much active chlorine as there would be at a CYA level of zero and a FC level of 5.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Jason, thank you for your timely responses!

    I will turn off my trichlor when I get home. I have not yet installed my Liquidator for I was going to wait until after winter. I am a little concern on how it might handle a freeze. I have enough to worry about for now. I have been adding 6% to bring up the levels anyways. The trichlor seemed to take forever.

    As the leaves fall, the pool is getting a little more sunlight. It's is partial to almost full shade. Only half of it gets the mid day sun, the whole pool gets the morning rising sun. I didn't know that sunlight actually aids in killing off the CC's. Might explain why the spa is taking so long. I keep it covered... Would you suggest to hold the chlorine about 5-6ppm for a two or more days?

    I read on the bottle that I was to spread the Calcium increaser across the surface of the water but the pool store said I should disolve it prior. I tested a little bit in my 5 gallon bucket and introduced it into the pool. I repeated the process until I had used the 5lbs. I never noticed the water in the bucket getting hot. I won't do that again!

    Where can I find all the "Does & Don't" for home pool users?

    So I can pour most of my mixtures into my skimmer? That seems simple enough. I will still need to introduce the mixture of chlorine and acid directly into the deep end of the pool? Any does/don't?

    Is there a calulation which can be done to figure out the "safe" levels of FC based on the CYA?
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

  15. Back To Top    #15

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    I have been having a fun time with the chems. The cooler weather seems to helped as well since there numbers are not jumping around much since there is no one swimming!

    I am taking daily readings with the ColorQ meter since it matches very closely to the TF100 kit. I then proof the ColorQ readings once a week or when a number seems off.

    ---I also found a cool notepad over at Google Docs. Once you create a free account at Google, you can create a log in an Excel format. (They have other tools too..) I like this for if I get into a discussion here, I have my numbers available to me at work or where ever I am at.---

    Latest readings:
    Water Temp: 73 degrees
    TC: 5.40
    FC: 4.87
    CC: .53
    PH: 7.73
    AY: 83
    CH: 227
    CYA: 50 (Tested via the TF100, last Friday)
    (Rained about 1/2" two days ago, didn't really impact the numbers much. Good thing I installed gutters just prior to the rain!)

    I am going to add about 20oz of acid to bring my PH down a bit and about 47 oz of Bleach to raise my FC a bit. Keeping my FC higher then 5ppm seems to be slowly working on the CC's plus I don't need to shock! The waters looks so awesome I wish I had it in me to dive in that cool water!!!
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

  16. Back To Top    #16
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Congratulations!
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Jason, sent you a little thank you for your help and your calculator!

    BBB all the way!
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

  18. Back To Top    #18
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabot
    Jason, sent you a little thank you for your help and your calculator!
    You are welcome!
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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