I have an indoor pool that I'd like to convert to salt. We teach swim lessons to little kids, so having something a little softer on the skin is a big plus. Currently the pool is kept at 90 degrees. We have about 100 people per day using the pool. Although, that number is likely to reach into the 200's sometime in the next few years. And we are open for business 7 days a week. I'm not looking to be frugal here, I will spend the money if the product is worth it. And I would like it to be fairly easy to control as many employees have to be trained how to use it. So.... Suggestions?
Incredibly High Bather Load
- Thread starter Martha
- Start date
Welcome to TFP.
Wow! That's a lot of bather load. Especially since they're lots of little kids.
How are you sanitizing it now?
Does the pool have any supplemental sanitation such as UV or ozone?
Any of the major brands will have something that should work for you.
Wow! That's a lot of bather load. Especially since they're lots of little kids.
How are you sanitizing it now?
Does the pool have any supplemental sanitation such as UV or ozone?
Any of the major brands will have something that should work for you.
My PB installed a tab feeder when it was built. It's AWFUL! He also put it before the heater, which has caused me to burn through a pool heater a year. Ugh. There is no supplemental sanitization going on.
Where are you located?
Does your locality allow swcg's for a commercial pool?
Send Josh at saltpoolguys a PM. He can probably give you some guidance in your quest.
Does your locality allow swcg's for a commercial pool?
Send Josh at saltpoolguys a PM. He can probably give you some guidance in your quest.
we have SWGs for commercial pools like that, but it will highly depend on whether NSF approval is required in your locality for commercial pools
100 to 200 people in a 26,700 Gallon pool indoor pool at 90 degrees and lots of kids? I think that you're going to need something more than chlorine. Ozone might be a good choice.
Note: Ozone cannot just be pumped into the return line. It has to be done properly, which means contact tanks, offgassing and ozone removal etc.
Are you currently having issues with chloramines?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _15602969/
Note: Ozone cannot just be pumped into the return line. It has to be done properly, which means contact tanks, offgassing and ozone removal etc.
Are you currently having issues with chloramines?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _15602969/
It is a little too late now, but whoever designed the pool for this type of bather load should have suggested an outdoor contact/holding/treatment tank of a very large capacity to buffer the bather load, provide outdoor UV exposure and function as a contact tank for outdoor ozone treatment if needed.
For your current situation, sure you could add ozone, but as the previous poster mentioned it has to be done properly and that much ozone has to be monitored when you have small children in an indoor environment. Ozone is an airway irritant and linked to asthma in small children. Residential ozone units would be inadequate for this task and therefore don't pose as much of an air quality contamination problem. Commercial units require all the stuff mentioned above and are around $20k for a setup.
Let us know what you find that works......
What do you do when a child has an accident in the pool? Do you close it and shut down for several hours? Would that affect your business negatively?
For your current situation, sure you could add ozone, but as the previous poster mentioned it has to be done properly and that much ozone has to be monitored when you have small children in an indoor environment. Ozone is an airway irritant and linked to asthma in small children. Residential ozone units would be inadequate for this task and therefore don't pose as much of an air quality contamination problem. Commercial units require all the stuff mentioned above and are around $20k for a setup.
Let us know what you find that works......
What do you do when a child has an accident in the pool? Do you close it and shut down for several hours? Would that affect your business negatively?
Ideally, after the ozone is off gassed, it would be passed through a GAC filter to remove any remaining ozone in the water. Monitoring the air in the room for ozone would be necessary to ensure that no significant levels of ozone were returning to the swimming environment.learthur said:
Are you open 24/7? How is it possible to teach that many kids a day how to swim? Even a typical YMCA can't handle that many kids a day for their swim classes.
WOW.
WOW.
Tablets with that kind of load will not be pretty. You'll replace water due to CYA level increases frequently.
What side is the plumbing and filter?
IMHO, you will need a good UV system and a large cell, on designed for a 60K gallon pool or a liquid feeder and ORP system, serious ventilation system, and limits on your bather load. Ozone will create issues you don't really want.
Don't even think about 200/day. Thats ***** not common sense talking. This pool is too small for that load. You are already at it's limit. Editied for politeness. JasonLion
Reduce the pool temp to no more than 84. You'll overheat the kids at 90.
I strongly urge you get a consult with someone that has a large commercial facility under their care. Its a totally different world than residential pool care with a lot more at stake.
What side is the plumbing and filter?
IMHO, you will need a good UV system and a large cell, on designed for a 60K gallon pool or a liquid feeder and ORP system, serious ventilation system, and limits on your bather load. Ozone will create issues you don't really want.
Don't even think about 200/day. Thats ***** not common sense talking. This pool is too small for that load. You are already at it's limit. Editied for politeness. JasonLion
Reduce the pool temp to no more than 84. You'll overheat the kids at 90.
I strongly urge you get a consult with someone that has a large commercial facility under their care. Its a totally different world than residential pool care with a lot more at stake.
The two opposing issues with ozone are that if you have too little it doesn't do much, while if you have enough for a public pool it is tricky to keep it out of the air. Ozone in the air is a respiratory irritant. Even at low levels it can be very problematic for people with respiratory problems or people with constant exposure. There are various ways to setup special plumbing to keep the ozone where you want it, and ventilation systems to get any excess ozone out of the room, but those systems require attention and maintenance. If something goes wrong you have to turn the ozone off or you get complaints from the swimmers, and in a commercial pool risk legal liability. But turning the ozone off means the water isn't going to stay clean.
UV is more reliable. Essentially all that tends to go wrong is that the bulbs blow out. If you keep a couple of spare bulbs on hand you have a quick and easy fix.
UV is more reliable. Essentially all that tends to go wrong is that the bulbs blow out. If you keep a couple of spare bulbs on hand you have a quick and easy fix.
Interestingly, this article by Wojtowicz says that ozone doesn't react quickly with urea and is even slow with ammonia at pool/spa pH since most of the ammonia is ammonium ion. Nevertheless, we've seen chlorine demand get cut in half in residential spas with ozonators so clearly something is going on there and I presumed that it was oxidation of urea since that was the largest nitrogenous component of sweat and urine and since the total chlorine demand was consistent with that predicted from the nitrogen content of sweat and urine. Also, chlorine alone does seem to handle bather waste within 24 hours if the active chlorine level is reasonable (4 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA or so) and the water temperature is hot. The chlorine and possibly ozone oxidation of urea may be very temperature dependent, though Blatchley's experiments (in this paper) didn't show more than the usual sort of temperature dependence. Of course, the only way to know for sure about urea is to measure in such spas, but there isn't an inexpensive test kit for that so this hasn't been done.
As for UV systems, by themselves UV doesn't oxidize many compounds directly such as urea, but just like UV in sunlight it can break down chlorine (both hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion) creating hydroxyl and chlorine free radicals. It is these free radicals that do most of the work of oxidation of organic compounds, probably including urea. Medium-pressure UV (as opposed to low-pressure UV) with its broader spectrum would break down more chlorine resulting in more free radicals. Though this increases chlorine usage, it is a small increase compared to that from high bather load so there could be a net reduction in overall chlorine demand if the UV can oxidize urea instead of chlorine having to do so.
As for UV systems, by themselves UV doesn't oxidize many compounds directly such as urea, but just like UV in sunlight it can break down chlorine (both hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion) creating hydroxyl and chlorine free radicals. It is these free radicals that do most of the work of oxidation of organic compounds, probably including urea. Medium-pressure UV (as opposed to low-pressure UV) with its broader spectrum would break down more chlorine resulting in more free radicals. Though this increases chlorine usage, it is a small increase compared to that from high bather load so there could be a net reduction in overall chlorine demand if the UV can oxidize urea instead of chlorine having to do so.
Wow. First of all, thanks for all of the responses. I don't know who to thank or respond to first!
After talking to a lot of other people who run pools similarly to mine, I decided that salt was not for me. In fact, I know of a $25,000 Autopilot, and at $35,000 TMI that people are looking to unload cheaply. They took them off of their pools and the units are now gathering dust in their garages.
It seems as if JasonLion is more in line with the other feedback that I'm getting. Everyone seems to love UV. And perhaps some faster/better turn over. So, I've decided to put a simple liquid chlorine/acid feeder on the pool. Right now I'm leaning towards the Hayward Cat 2000. I will see how that affects the pool, and then move on to turnover/filtration.
As to the bather load, I have seen people run 2000 kids a week in a smaller pool. It can be done, and at that temperature. Those things are not negotiable. Having said that, I greatly appreciate any help in managing this pool! It is sure to be a steep learning curve for me.
After talking to a lot of other people who run pools similarly to mine, I decided that salt was not for me. In fact, I know of a $25,000 Autopilot, and at $35,000 TMI that people are looking to unload cheaply. They took them off of their pools and the units are now gathering dust in their garages.
It seems as if JasonLion is more in line with the other feedback that I'm getting. Everyone seems to love UV. And perhaps some faster/better turn over. So, I've decided to put a simple liquid chlorine/acid feeder on the pool. Right now I'm leaning towards the Hayward Cat 2000. I will see how that affects the pool, and then move on to turnover/filtration.
As to the bather load, I have seen people run 2000 kids a week in a smaller pool. It can be done, and at that temperature. Those things are not negotiable. Having said that, I greatly appreciate any help in managing this pool! It is sure to be a steep learning curve for me.
Since most of the ammonia will be in the form of chloramine, the ozone will oxidize it. And, since the hydroxyl radical will be produced, and it will oxidize ammonia or chloramine, ozone can be effective.
Using ozone and UV together creates an Advanced Oxidation Process.
UV might be a better choice than ozone due to the possible issues with ozone.
"After talking to a lot of other people who run pools similarly to mine, I decided that salt was not for me. In fact, I know of a $25,000 Autopilot, and at $35,000 TMI that people are looking to unload cheaply. They took them off of their pools and the units are now gathering dust in their garages."
Hello Martha,
I would be interested in finding out more about the AutoPilot commercial system that has been removed from a facility. Can you PM me the information? It would help me understand if I have a dealer that needs training, or if I need to contact the facility.
Hello Martha,
I would be interested in finding out more about the AutoPilot commercial system that has been removed from a facility. Can you PM me the information? It would help me understand if I have a dealer that needs training, or if I need to contact the facility.
Thanks James, for that additional link. In particular regarding urea it also states the following:
and also this:
So it does appear that ozone may be of some benefit along with chlorine once urea gets chlorinated. So between that and the hydroxyl free radical formation, ozone may be of benefit though with challenges that UV does not have.
Martha said:
curious to find out why they uninstalled the units? would you be able to elaborate a bit more on the problems they have found with using SWG?