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Thread: pool plumbing schematic help

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    pool plumbing schematic help

    When I decided to build my own pool I knew that the weakest link in the build for me was going to be the plumbing. Here is a diagram of what I think will work. This schematic is based on all the information I could find on the web. Hopefully someone with more expertise could take a look at this and offer some ideas as to whether this will work or offer a better way to do some (hopefully not all) of it. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance,
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    The sacrificial anode gets connected to the bonding system and buried in (hopefully moist) dirt. It shouldn't have anything to do with the plumbing.

    The way you have the waterfall pump setup could be mildly annoying in the future. You don't need a whole pump just to run the deck jets, yet the way you have things plumbed you will need to run that pump to have the deck jets. There could also be problems if the valve controlling the sharing of skimmer 2 got out of sync with the second motor's on/off state. This certainly isn't the end of the world or anything, just less flexible than it could be. It is a complex situation, so you have to make some compromise somewhere, I'm just not sure this is the one I would make.

    Do you have a main drain or wall suction? A setup this complex usually would. A main drain protects you from the skimmers getting clogged and the pump running dry.

    Many people have a bypass to the spa return that doesn't go through the actuator valve. That gets you spa overflow all the time at an easily adjustable rate instead of depending on the actuator stopping at exactly the right intermediate position. It's kind of a six of one half a dozen of another decision, pros and cons both ways and no ideal choice.

    I'd go to 2" pipe on the waterfall, and 2 1/2" pipe on both sides of the spa jet pump.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Thanks for the reply,

    The anode I am using is this in-line one. Instructions say to put it in-line before whatever you are trying to protect. In my case it is the heater.

    http://www.permacastonline.com/pdfs/tnflyer.pdf

    I did not put in any main drains or wall suction. I was going to do a wall suction but decided to go with a robotic cleaner so I didn't think I would need one. In hind sight I guess I should have put one in anyway. Is this going to be a major problem? I guess I could still add a wall suction, would be a bit of work since the liner is in and the pool is half full of water. My thinking was that with two skimmers it was unlikely that both would get plugged.

    I agree with you on the separate pump for the deck jets. I am starting to lean away from putting in a waterfall. If the waterfall is eliminated I thought I would go with only two pumps and shutting off the step jets and diverting that water to the deck jets. Also by eliminating the second pump skimmer number two would be plumbed into the main circulation pump eliminating some valving. Would that work better?

    I went that way with the spa return plumbing because I thought the PS-8 would look after the spa over flow automatically. I added the diverter valve after the actuator valve because I thought I could fine tune it a bit if necessary. Maybe I am over estimating the abilities of the PS-8 and the actuator valve. While inspecting pools with spill over spas while I was vacationing in Florida it looked to me like the actuator was controlling the spill over rate.

    The spill over spa only has 6 jets in it. I thought 2" piping would have been enough. Do you think I should go to 2 1/2" with 6 jets?

    Thanks again for your help. I am going to make a new diagram eliminating the waterfall and pump and post it up to see what you think.
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Here is the revised diagram with no waterfall. Is this better?
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Is the temp sensor on your solar return meant to be in the pipe itself? That temp sensor is meant to be mounted near the panels on the roof so the solar system can measure if there is enough heat on the panels to kick in or not.

    Jason, what about a heater bypass?
    15,600 Gallon, 16' x 32' In-Ground Vinyl Pool
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    8 gallon Liquidator, Aquatherm EcoSun Solar Panels, 2 wheel ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Have you considered a variable speed pump for the primary circulation? Will a 1 HP pump be sufficient for your solar system (consider how far away and how high you will ned to pump the water etc.)?
    15,600 Gallon, 16' x 32' In-Ground Vinyl Pool
    Pentair VS 3050 pump, Quad DE 60 filter and SunTouch controller
    8 gallon Liquidator, Aquatherm EcoSun Solar Panels, 2 wheel ThePoolCleaner

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Certainly there isn't any requirement that you have a main drain or a wall suction. It simply cuts down on worries on those rare occasions when you can't empty the skimmer baskets for a couple of days. The automation system will protect the pump if the skimmers are both clogged, so the only worry is that you will stop getting chlorine added when that happens. That only matters if you will be away for several days.

    Eliminating the waterfall simplifies everything greatly. Now the only constraint is that you can't run the deck jets while you are heating the spa. That is a fairly reasonable compromise.

    2" pipe is enough for the spa, 2 1/2" is just better. Unless you are using very low flow jets, the flow rate will be pretty high and 2 1/2" will be more efficient. Still, 2" will work.

    Actuators go into one of two different positions. There is no stoping at a third position unless you manually intervene. You can adjust exactly where those positions are, but you only get two.

    On the return valve/actuator, there are three ways to plumb/set it up it and all three are common and all three work. The simplest setup is spa only and pool only. When the spill over is running then a lot of water is going over it and circulation in the pool is not so great. The next setup is spa only and mixed pool and spa spill over. That lets you run the spill over at a lower rate all the time without losing good circulation in the pool. Both of these setups use the plumbing the way you drew it and slightly different configurations of the return actuator.

    The third, most complex, setup is spa only or pool only, and then a separate pipe with a separate valve that taps off before the main actuator and directs water to the spa spill over. This approach is more complex but it gives you extra control over both when the spa spill over runs and just how much water is flowing over it.

    The 2 way diverter valve you have in your diagram before the pool returns split is essentially useless. When running in pool only mode you need that valve all the way open, and it doesn't serve any winterizing or servicing purpose.

    The check valve after the two pool skimmer lines merge is optional unless your equipment pad is well above the height of the pool water level.

    There are a couple of things you have done that are great, but most people leave out to save money. For example the check valve on the solar return is optional. Also, the 2 way diverter valves on may of the lines could be ball valves. In the other direction there are a couple of things you don't have that are optional but many people do have, like ball valves on the two solar lines to cut off the solar panels in case of leaks. Also a heater bypass as carlscan26 suggested. None of this is very important either way in my mind, small amounts of money.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    I would go with a minimum of 2 1/2" plumbing for the jets for a couple reasons.

    I also have a 1 HP full rated pump for 6 jets but my jets are 3/8" orifice low flow 15 GPM/jet and the 1 HP with the 2 1/2" plumbing is barely enough to run the jets to get moderate pressure.

    But besides that, for both entrapment reasons and head loss, you should keep water velocity below 8 ft/sec in the suction piping. So for 6 jets running at 15 GPM each for a total of 90 GPM, you will want a minimum of 2 1/2" plumbing. Your city may or may not require this anyway but something to consider.

    However, if you have 7/16" jets that need about 22 GPM each or a total of 132 GPM would require 3" plumbing plus a much larger pump or dual pumps. So if you have higher flow jets or want a stronger jet, you might consider upsizing the pump and plumbing.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Quote Originally Posted by carlscan26
    Is the temp sensor on your solar return meant to be in the pipe itself? That temp sensor is meant to be mounted near the panels on the roof so the solar system can measure if there is enough heat on the panels to kick in or not.

    Jason, what about a heater bypass?
    I haven't really got the whole solar thing figured out yet. It is the last thing on my "to do" list. I just threw it in the diagram. For now I just want to get the system up and running and will cap off the solar pipes for the future addition. I do like Jason's idea of putting in ball valves to shut off the solar in the event of a leak so I will definitely do that.
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Quote Originally Posted by carlscan26
    Have you considered a variable speed pump for the primary circulation? Will a 1 HP pump be sufficient for your solar system (consider how far away and how high you will ned to pump the water etc.)?
    I had considered a variable speed pump right up until I priced it out. I posed the question last year about solar panels and pump sizes and it was deemed that a 1 hp pump should get the water up there and prime the system. Once the system is primed the water flowing down acts like a siphon. At least that is what I understood.
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Certainly there isn't any requirement that you have a main drain or a wall suction. It simply cuts down on worries on those rare occasions when you can't empty the skimmer baskets for a couple of days. The automation system will protect the pump if the skimmers are both clogged, so the only worry is that you will stop getting chlorine added when that happens. That only matters if you will be away for several days.

    I will get the pool up and running this year and see how it goes. I can always add a wall suction at a later date as it will be as difficult then as it is now since the liner is already in place. I will run an extra length of pipe and cap it at the pool for future use.

    Eliminating the waterfall simplifies everything greatly. Now the only constraint is that you can't run the deck jets while you are heating the spa. That is a fairly reasonable compromise.

    I can live with that.

    2" pipe is enough for the spa, 2 1/2" is just better. Unless you are using very low flow jets, the flow rate will be pretty high and 2 1/2" will be more efficient. Still, 2" will work.

    I am not sure what type of jets are in the spa. I will be setting the spa in the next couple days and will take a better look at them when I get it unpacked. To be honest my wife and I are not big fans of really high powered jets. She just likes to use the spa as a big bathtub that she can read a book in and keep an eye on the kids.



    Actuators go into one of two different positions. There is no stoping at a third position unless you manually intervene. You can adjust exactly where those positions are, but you only get two.

    Thanks, I understand that better now

    On the return valve/actuator, there are three ways to plumb/set it up it and all three are common and all three work. The simplest setup is spa only and pool only. When the spill over is running then a lot of water is going over it and circulation in the pool is not so great. The next setup is spa only and mixed pool and spa spill over. That lets you run the spill over at a lower rate all the time without losing good circulation in the pool. Both of these setups use the plumbing the way you drew it and slightly different configurations of the return actuator.

    The third, most complex, setup is spa only or pool only, and then a separate pipe with a separate valve that taps off before the main actuator and directs water to the spa spill over. This approach is more complex but it gives you extra control over both when the spa spill over runs and just how much water is flowing over it.

    I was going to set it up as spa only and mixed pool and spa spill over but I will give more thought to the spa only or pool only option. I will draw up another diagram to post to make sure I have it figured out properly.

    The 2 way diverter valve you have in your diagram before the pool returns split is essentially useless. When running in pool only mode you need that valve all the way open, and it doesn't serve any winterizing or servicing purpose.

    I thought I could shut off the return jets to get more power to the step jets or the deck jets if needed. If it is not needed than I will eliminate it.

    The check valve after the two pool skimmer lines merge is optional unless your equipment pad is well above the height of the pool water level.

    The equipment pad is probably 2-3 feet higher than the water level. At what height does the check valve become necessary?

    There are a couple of things you have done that are great, but most people leave out to save money. For example the check valve on the solar return is optional. Also, the 2 way diverter valves on may of the lines could be ball valves. In the other direction there are a couple of things you don't have that are optional but many people do have, like ball valves on the two solar lines to cut off the solar panels in case of leaks. Also a heater bypass as carlscan26 suggested. None of this is very important either way in my mind, small amounts of money.

    I figured the diverter valves where only a little more money than the ball valves but would be a better valve in the long run. I will definitely be adding valves to the solar panel piping.

    What is the benefit of a heater bypass?
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    I would go with a minimum of 2 1/2" plumbing for the jets for a couple reasons.

    I also have a 1 HP full rated pump for 6 jets but my jets are 3/8" orifice low flow 15 GPM/jet and the 1 HP with the 2 1/2" plumbing is barely enough to run the jets to get moderate pressure.

    But besides that, for both entrapment reasons and head loss, you should keep water velocity below 8 ft/sec in the suction piping. So for 6 jets running at 15 GPM each for a total of 90 GPM, you will want a minimum of 2 1/2" plumbing. Your city may or may not require this anyway but something to consider.

    However, if you have 7/16" jets that need about 22 GPM each or a total of 132 GPM would require 3" plumbing plus a much larger pump or dual pumps. So if you have higher flow jets or want a stronger jet, you might consider upsizing the pump and plumbing.
    I will look into this further. As I said I am not sure what jets I have but will find out shortly. I any event I think I will go with the 2-1/2' pipe just to be safe.
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Thank you very much to everyone who has posted replies. This is very helpful and I appreciate your time.
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    A heater bypass adds complexity, but it allows you to avoid the extra dynamic head from running the water through the heater when you are not in heating season. More plainly, when the heater is bypassed you get a higher flow rate.

    Even at 2-3 feet the check valve isn't required, but it will help, probably a great idea given that. For it to be effective at helping the pump to prime you don't want to be losing water down the spa suction when the pump skimmer basket is open either. The ideal solution in that case is to put the pool and spa suction merge as low as possible then the check valve and then go up the rest of the vertical distance, so as much water is trapped in front of the pump as practical. You don't need to get it perfect, even a little is a big help in priming.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    A heater bypass adds complexity, but it allows you to avoid the extra dynamic head from running the water through the heater when you are not in heating season. More plainly, when the heater is bypassed you get a higher flow rate.

    Even at 2-3 feet the check valve isn't required, but it will help, probably a great idea given that. For it to be effective at helping the pump to prime you don't want to be losing water down the spa suction when the pump skimmer basket is open either. The ideal solution in that case is to put the pool and spa suction merge as low as possible then the check valve and then go up the rest of the vertical distance, so as much water is trapped in front of the pump as practical. You don't need to get it perfect, even a little is a big help in priming.
    Just getting over a cold that put me down for a couple days so I am just getting back at this now that I can think clearly. I think I am going to pass on the heater bypass. Read some more info on it and I don't feel the good out ways the bad. I am worried about the water in the heater going stagnant. Also since I have a spill over spa that will probably be needing frequent heat boosts from the heater and the bypass will just become something that won't get used.

    I think I will still go with the check valve and I will try and put the merge as low as possible.

    I can't seem to find any spa flex in 2.5" for the spill over plumbing. Is there any problem with going to 3" other than the added cost?
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    3" is fine if you can't find 2 1/2"
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    OK with a little more tweaking I think I am getting close with the plumbing schematic.
    The problem is with a Prologic PS 8 I can only run 4 actuators and I have 5 in the schematic. The one I'm not sure I need is the one going to the waterfall pump marked "Do I need this valve" in the diagram. My thinking was to be able to use the second skimmer while the waterfall pump is turned off by the circulation pump and them use that skimmer to feed the waterfall pump when it was turned on. I'm not sure if I need a valve though. I'm just wondering if I go without the valve will the system backfeed through the pump and suck air into the system. Any thoughts?

    Thanks in advance,
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

  18. Back To Top    #18
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Technically, no you don't need that valve. Everything is more complex with that valve. For example things get strange if you leave that valve set to full open to all three pipes. At the same time, it does give you a lot of extra flexibility. I might leave the valve in, but have it be manual. That way you have the option of doing things like running both skimmers to the main pump someday just in case.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: pool plumbing schematic help

    Thanks for the reply,
    I think I will leave it in but turn it manually.

    Is there any harm in adding some chlorine or bleach to the pool while the circ system is not running? I would like to stop it from getting any greener while I finish the plumbing.

    Thanks,
    14X28 I/G steel wall hump back Kidney 3'-5', 30mil vinyl liner,92" spill over spa, 1hp Hayward Super 11-pool circ., 1 hp Hayward super 11- spa booster, Hayward Tristar waterfall pump through Jandy CS100 for three 24" Brilliant Wonders sheer descent waterfalls and two Jandy Laminar deck jets , Hayward Swim Clear Cartridge 425sqft, Hayward H-series 250,000 BTU N/G, Pro-logic PS8, T-Cell, Hayward Aqua Vac Robotic

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