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Thread: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlorine

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    What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlorine

    I went to the local Pool Supply store to pickup 4 of my 8 free gallons of Hasa Chlorine. The guy behind the counter isn't a fan of Liquid Chlorine. It seems that everyone has an opinion on what they like and what works best (he did think Nature 2 was worthless). He prefers to use Chlorine Tablets (1 float per 10,000 gal, 5 tablets per float, fill them up as necessary).

    His concern with the LQ was rising PH level. He tells me that it will take a lot of Acid to keep the PH in Balance. He thinks about a gallon of acid every week or two (at about $9 each). I have fairly hard water and he thinks the LQ will make scaling worse.

    If I keep the Chlorine and Acid level in check, does all the calcium (that will cause scaling) stay in the water and not on my tile?

    Has anyone done a price comparison (say on a yearly basis) for the various Chlorine Methods? (Salt, Liquid, Tablets, Nature, BBB, etc)
    40x20 Free Form IG Pool (aprox 29,000 Gal, 140 Perimeter, depth 3'6"-7', Baja Shelf, 8x8 Free Form Spa) - Gunite Shell, Pebble Plaster Finish, Poured Concrete Coping - 3 Deep Heat Returns - Jandy LXi400 Gas Heater (400,000 Btu) - Jandy Variable Speed Pump JEP 2.0 - Jandy CL 600 Filter - HASA Liquidator - Jandy PDA 6 w/ Remote - 4x Jandy WaterColors Pool LEDs - 48" Gas Fire Pit - 6x Gas Tiki Torches - 12'x15' U-shaped BBQ Island (Firemagic Equipment)
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Liquid chlorine is mostly pH neutral when accounting for chlorine consumption. Acid demand should be minimal as long as you keep your TA (Total Alkalinity) at the correct level for your pool.

    You will have far more pH problems with trichlor tabs due to their acidity. You will need to constantly add pH increaser or baking soda when using tabs.

    Tabs are also more than 50 percent cyanuric acid. So, they will quickly add too much cyanuric acid if you use them as your primary source of chlorine.

    The 12.5 tabs that pool store person would have you use would raise the chlorine by 24, raise the cyanuric acid by 15 ppm and lower the pH by 1.28.

    This would probably last you 10 days to 2 weeks. You would need to add about 9 pounds of sodium carbonate to compensate for the acidity of the tabs. In two to three months, your cyanuric acid would be raised by 100 ppm.

    For plaster pools, the CSI (Calcite Saturation Index) is very important. As long as you keep the CSI in the 0.0 to +0.3 range, then you won't get scaling, and you will protect your plaster from being damaged.

    cost-comparison-of-chlorine-sources-t1859.html

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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

    My pool is a pebble finish.
    40x20 Free Form IG Pool (aprox 29,000 Gal, 140 Perimeter, depth 3'6"-7', Baja Shelf, 8x8 Free Form Spa) - Gunite Shell, Pebble Plaster Finish, Poured Concrete Coping - 3 Deep Heat Returns - Jandy LXi400 Gas Heater (400,000 Btu) - Jandy Variable Speed Pump JEP 2.0 - Jandy CL 600 Filter - HASA Liquidator - Jandy PDA 6 w/ Remote - 4x Jandy WaterColors Pool LEDs - 48" Gas Fire Pit - 6x Gas Tiki Torches - 12'x15' U-shaped BBQ Island (Firemagic Equipment)
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW
    Liquid chlorine is mostly pH neutral when accounting for chlorine consumption. Acid demand should be minimal as long as you keep your TA (Total Alkalinity) at the correct level for your pool.

    You will have far more pH problems with trichlor tabs due to their acidity. You will need to constantly add pH increaser or baking soda when using tabs.

    Tabs are also more than 50 percent cyanuric acid. So, they will quickly add too much cyanuric acid if you use them as your primary source of chlorine.

    The 12.5 tabs that pool store person would have you use would raise the chlorine by 24, raise the cyanuric acid by 15 ppm and lower the pH by 1.28.

    This would probably last you 10 days to 2 weeks. You would need to add about 9 pounds of sodium carbonate to compensate for the acidity of the tabs. In two to three months, your cyanuric acid would be raised by 100 ppm.

    For plaster pools, the CSI (Calcite Saturation Index) is very important. As long as you keep the CSI in the 0.0 to +0.3 range, then you won't get scaling, and you will protect your plaster from being damaged.

    cost-comparison-of-chlorine-sources-t1859.html

    James, while this is great advice, you likely missed it but Nightmare has a freshly built ptec pool. Starting off with trichlor tabs is not such a bad idea until he reaches his CYA target and then switch to liquid chlorine as in the beginning the acidic tabs will help offset ph rise that occurs during the plaster curing period.
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Quote Originally Posted by dmanb2b
    James, while this is great advice, you likely missed it but Nightmare has a freshly built ptec pool. Starting off with trichlor tabs is not such a bad idea until he reaches his CYA target and then switch to liquid chlorine as in the beginning the acidic tabs will help offset ph rise that occurs during the plaster curing period.
    OK, thanks for catching that. I agree that tabs would be a good choice to start out with on a new pebble tec pool.

    Nightmare, tabs would be OK for the first 30 days, or so, until your cyanuric acid hit about 50 ppm. I wouldn't use a floater, though. Floaters can tend to cause problems due to locally high chlorine levels, such as near immersed rails etc. I prefer an offline feeder for tabs. After switching to liquid chlorine, you could still periodically use tabs to lower the pH and increase the cyanuric acid as necessary. I don't think that the liquidator would conflict with an off line feeder due to the low feed rate of the liquidator. However, I would probably not use them at the same time just to be safe.

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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Is there a page that shows the Start-Up procedures for a new "Pebble" Plaster pool?

    I found this: http://www.mmgtx.com/pool-start-up-PT-PS.htm

    The instructions here do not match what I was told by the PB Start-up guy. He put a gallon of Chlorine and I think a Gallon of Acid into the pool on day 1. He gave me a bag (about a gallon) of stabilizer, but told me NOT to put it into the pool for a couple weeks.

    I tested the water just now. Chlorine is ZERO and PH is 7.2.
    40x20 Free Form IG Pool (aprox 29,000 Gal, 140 Perimeter, depth 3'6"-7', Baja Shelf, 8x8 Free Form Spa) - Gunite Shell, Pebble Plaster Finish, Poured Concrete Coping - 3 Deep Heat Returns - Jandy LXi400 Gas Heater (400,000 Btu) - Jandy Variable Speed Pump JEP 2.0 - Jandy CL 600 Filter - HASA Liquidator - Jandy PDA 6 w/ Remote - 4x Jandy WaterColors Pool LEDs - 48" Gas Fire Pit - 6x Gas Tiki Torches - 12'x15' U-shaped BBQ Island (Firemagic Equipment)
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    The only things to be careful of is to raise the chlorine slowly and to keep a careful watch on pH. Your pH is fine but keep watching it and I'd add about 2 ppm of chlorine slowly over a few hours if possible.

    Here's a link to the Pool School article on Pool Plaster Startup. It should work for pebble as well.
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    I read that, but it really sounds like a standard Plaster pool instead of a pebble. The plaster crew did an acid wash, power wash and a ton of brushing before any water went into the pool. I brushed the pool yesterday and very little sediment was kicked up by the brush. The PB Start-Up guy put my 4-Wheel "The Pool Cleaner" into the pool the first day too.
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    It is for standard plaster, but if you follow it you'll be fine. The two big things, are keeping some chlorine in there, but don't add too much or too fast and watch the pH.
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare
    His concern with the LQ was rising PH level. He tells me that it will take a lot of Acid to keep the PH in Balance. He thinks about a gallon of acid every week or two (at about $9 each). I have fairly hard water and he thinks the LQ will make scaling worse.
    He's full of it.

    You're going to be using that much acid anyway, even after the new pool is fully cured. I doubt your fill water is significantly different than mine. It can take a lot of acid to reduce TA, but once you find the sweet spot for your pool, you'll be adding a quart or two a week. And $9 is awful steep for acid.

    Ask the pool store genius what his CYA level is, how often he shocks, and what all that shocking does to his CH level. May as well ask how often he recommends drain and refill.

    Calcium is forever. Get used to using Pool Calculator and do whatever it takes to keep CSI neutral, and you'll be fine. Play with pH and TA and see the changes. You can't do much about CH or temperature... When it starts getting harder and harder to maintain the CSI, then think about partial drain and refill. I have a few threads here detailing my adventures using the pool to water the lawn, as well as diverting rain water to dilute things.
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Thanks everyone.

    I stopped by another pool store yesterday (recommended by the PB). The guy seems more willing to work with me on the LQ. He ran a full water test (Store 1 only did Chlorine and pH).

    Temp - 65
    Saturation Index 0.1
    TDS - 246
    CYA - 0
    Tot. Chlorine - 0.3
    Free Chlorine - 0.3
    pH - 7.5
    Tot. Alch - 110
    Adj. Alch - 110
    Tot. Hardness - 279
    Salt - n/a

    $117 later I went home with a 25lb buckets of BioGuard Silk Tablets, 2 Floaters and a tube of Magic Lube
    40x20 Free Form IG Pool (aprox 29,000 Gal, 140 Perimeter, depth 3'6"-7', Baja Shelf, 8x8 Free Form Spa) - Gunite Shell, Pebble Plaster Finish, Poured Concrete Coping - 3 Deep Heat Returns - Jandy LXi400 Gas Heater (400,000 Btu) - Jandy Variable Speed Pump JEP 2.0 - Jandy CL 600 Filter - HASA Liquidator - Jandy PDA 6 w/ Remote - 4x Jandy WaterColors Pool LEDs - 48" Gas Fire Pit - 6x Gas Tiki Torches - 12'x15' U-shaped BBQ Island (Firemagic Equipment)
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    So 25 pounds of tabs, 2 floaters and a tube of lube was $117?
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Yes

    25lb Tabs - $77.95 - included a free $12 blue feeder
    Shark Feeder - $19.95
    Magic Lube - $9.95
    +tax
    40x20 Free Form IG Pool (aprox 29,000 Gal, 140 Perimeter, depth 3'6"-7', Baja Shelf, 8x8 Free Form Spa) - Gunite Shell, Pebble Plaster Finish, Poured Concrete Coping - 3 Deep Heat Returns - Jandy LXi400 Gas Heater (400,000 Btu) - Jandy Variable Speed Pump JEP 2.0 - Jandy CL 600 Filter - HASA Liquidator - Jandy PDA 6 w/ Remote - 4x Jandy WaterColors Pool LEDs - 48" Gas Fire Pit - 6x Gas Tiki Torches - 12'x15' U-shaped BBQ Island (Firemagic Equipment)
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    You probably could have gotten the tabs and feeder cheaper at walmart. Big markup at pool stores on that stuff, especially Bioguard.
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    I ***HATE*** Wal*

    I'd pay 10% more not to shop there

    Tablets should be a 1-time deal and the guy does the full spectrum testing. I figure I could throw him a couple bucks.
    40x20 Free Form IG Pool (aprox 29,000 Gal, 140 Perimeter, depth 3'6"-7', Baja Shelf, 8x8 Free Form Spa) - Gunite Shell, Pebble Plaster Finish, Poured Concrete Coping - 3 Deep Heat Returns - Jandy LXi400 Gas Heater (400,000 Btu) - Jandy Variable Speed Pump JEP 2.0 - Jandy CL 600 Filter - HASA Liquidator - Jandy PDA 6 w/ Remote - 4x Jandy WaterColors Pool LEDs - 48" Gas Fire Pit - 6x Gas Tiki Torches - 12'x15' U-shaped BBQ Island (Firemagic Equipment)
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare
    I ***HATE*** Wal*

    I'd pay 10% more not to shop there

    .


    I just hate Bioguard. Probably worse than you hate walmart
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Is there something wrong with the BioGuard Silk Tablets?

    I talked to the BioGuard guy about the BBB Method a little yesterday.

    He tells me that:

    -Some EPA bill passed several years back made it difficult to buy one of the "B"s in California. I think it was the Borax.
    -BioGuard re-engineered a replacement product that can be sold in CA.
    -The BioGuard products make the water feel better than salt, reduces scaling, and
    -I should think about adding Simplicity Maximizer to the pool. It should make it much easier to maintain levels in the pool.

    I'm not sure what I think about the 'silky' water thing. I would need to spend some time in several different pools to see if I could tell the difference.

    Reading on TFP, it appears that one of the BioGuard products can replace one of the "B"s.
    The Simplicity Maximizer appears to be a name brand product for Boric Acid, probably with some additives.

    In the end, I really want to put the least number of chemicles and dollars into the pool for water maintenance.
    40x20 Free Form IG Pool (aprox 29,000 Gal, 140 Perimeter, depth 3'6"-7', Baja Shelf, 8x8 Free Form Spa) - Gunite Shell, Pebble Plaster Finish, Poured Concrete Coping - 3 Deep Heat Returns - Jandy LXi400 Gas Heater (400,000 Btu) - Jandy Variable Speed Pump JEP 2.0 - Jandy CL 600 Filter - HASA Liquidator - Jandy PDA 6 w/ Remote - 4x Jandy WaterColors Pool LEDs - 48" Gas Fire Pit - 6x Gas Tiki Torches - 12'x15' U-shaped BBQ Island (Firemagic Equipment)
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    The only thing Bioguard will do is take money out of your wallet. Nothing wrong with their "silky tabs".
    They use slick marketing to make you think their products are better. They have this wonderful thing called, wait for it...
    BALANCE PAK 100!!! They charge ~$25 for a 10 pound box. You know what it is? Baking soda you can buy at walmart (or the grocery store if you hate wally) for less than half the cost.

    As far as borax, you can buy 20 mule team borax at the grocery store. Look in the laundry aisle. Never eard of the california thing. A lot of TFP fiolks are in cali, maybe they know. Far as i know he's full of it.

    Simplicity maximizer is a way to add borates to he water w/o using 20 mule team and muriatic acid. At least thats what i think it is.

    Stay out of the bioguard store if you want to keep your money
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    Re: What is the 'Down' side of the Liquidator / Liquid Chlor

    Silk tabs contain extra chemicals, other than just trichlor. Products like that are annoying because there is no easy way to regular the levels of the various chemicals independently, you get everything in the tablet if you need it or not. You get much more control and save money by adding exactly what you need to add, instead of buying combo products like silk tabs.
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