Alkalinity vs. PH
- Thread starter rwrogers11
- Start date
I just bought the Hasa Residential 4 Gallon Liquidator for $ 150, including shipping.
http://www.bluepoolsupplies.com/ren...CATION_TOKEN=9EAB198BAD977E87E9E615E5FF0D4AFD
http://www.bluepoolsupplies.com/ren...CATION_TOKEN=9EAB198BAD977E87E9E615E5FF0D4AFD
If you have any problems setting it up just post back here and we'll be glad to help.
Thanks, everyone and this site has been very helpfull. I plan on sticking around here for quite awhile.
You may need the 3/8" Liquidator upgrade kit as many people have found they need that to help prevent "white stuff" (calcium carbonate) buildup problems. This same site also sells The Liquidator itself (though the 8-gallon model).
It seems to help by at least reducing the frequency that you need to clean the valve. As for attacking the problem more directly, having a lower saturation index helps so given that you have a vinyl pool then if your CH is on the low side you'll probably not have as many problems. Some others have tried using 50 ppm Borates in the pool which theoretically should help and did help some, but not all that tried it. You can certainly see how things go with your current setup and if you find either too much white stuff or that you can't get the flow rate high enough, then you can buy the upgrade kit later on.
I have a question along the same lines that I hope someone can help with. I have a 15K gallon pool that's about a year old with a SWG.
My PH levels are high, probably 8.0 or higher and my alkalinity is at 150.
I've read that to lower alkalinity, I must bring down the PH with acid and aerate. I've tried adding acid several times, but for whatever reason, it does not lower the PH.
My PH levels are high, probably 8.0 or higher and my alkalinity is at 150.
I've read that to lower alkalinity, I must bring down the PH with acid and aerate. I've tried adding acid several times, but for whatever reason, it does not lower the PH.
Are you using Muriatic Acid? What is the size of your pool in gallons and how much acid have you been adding?
It's 15,000 gallons. I've added muriatic acid at various times. The last time I added 1 gallon. I tested last night, and according to the test kit, i need to add 1/2 gallon. But i don't think it will make a difference
I found you can use the pool calculator to add your chemicals, then wait a half hour to an hour and see if the results were as expected for your volume pool. Adjust the volume to make the numbers work out, then keep working that way. I had no idea what volume pool I had, so we measured and estimated 47,000 gallons. The pool inspector guessed 52,000 gallons. After 6 months of following the pool calculator and adjusting the volume to match my results, I ended up with my estimate of 44,000 actual gallons. I use that for all my chemicals now, and they seem to always be spot on.
By any chance are you getting half-strength Muriatic Acid that is only 15-16% or is it full-strength that says 31.45% Hydrochloric Acid in the ingredients? One gallon of full-strength acid in 15,000 gallons with a pH of 8.0 and TA of 150 ppm should lower the TA to 117 ppm and the pH theoretically to 6.85 though in practice carbon dioxide outgassing will probably keep it above 7.0 or 7.2 depending on how soon you measure the pH. If you were using half-strength, then the TA would only drop to 133 ppm and the pH to no lower than 7.2 though probably higher than that if you wait too long to measure it.
So something is certainly not right here. Measure the pH in the pool after 30 minutes to an hour after you've added the acid, which you should do slowly over a return flow in the deep end with the pump running (and then lightly brush the side and bottom of the pool where you've added the acid to ensure thorough mixing).
I also assume your chlorine level isn't too high (> 10 ppm) since that will affect the pH test and can make it read falsely high having a purple color or just looking like 8.0+. Nevertheless, if the acid is working properly, you should find the TA dropping as I indicated above and that isn't affected by high chlorine levels since you add a chlorine neutralizer at the start of the test (2 drops of sodium thiosulfate).
So something is certainly not right here. Measure the pH in the pool after 30 minutes to an hour after you've added the acid, which you should do slowly over a return flow in the deep end with the pump running (and then lightly brush the side and bottom of the pool where you've added the acid to ensure thorough mixing).
I also assume your chlorine level isn't too high (> 10 ppm) since that will affect the pH test and can make it read falsely high having a purple color or just looking like 8.0+. Nevertheless, if the acid is working properly, you should find the TA dropping as I indicated above and that isn't affected by high chlorine levels since you add a chlorine neutralizer at the start of the test (2 drops of sodium thiosulfate).
Thanks chem geek
I'm using what they sell at Home Depot. It says the active ingredients are Hydrogen Chloride (14.5%) and Inert Ingredients (85.5%).
Is this full strength? It doesn't sound like it. I thought they were all the same.
I'm using what they sell at Home Depot. It says the active ingredients are Hydrogen Chloride (14.5%) and Inert Ingredients (85.5%).
Is this full strength? It doesn't sound like it. I thought they were all the same.
That's half-strength so if using The Pool Calculator set the acid concentration to "15.7% - 10º Baumé". Well, this at least partly explains why you aren't seeing as much of an effect.
On the plus side, half-strength doesn't fume as much. If you're getting it at half the price of full-strength, then that's a reasonable trade-off.
On the plus side, half-strength doesn't fume as much. If you're getting it at half the price of full-strength, then that's a reasonable trade-off.
Thank you. I'll try the higher concentrate acid.
As far aerating the pool, would I add the acid, wait about an hour, then proceed to commence the process?
How long do I need to aerate? Can you give me some pointers?
Thank you for your time and patience for a newbie
As far aerating the pool, would I add the acid, wait about an hour, then proceed to commence the process?
How long do I need to aerate? Can you give me some pointers?
Thank you for your time and patience for a newbie
The aeration can be continual. If you have eyeball returns, you can point them up so that high speed on the pump has the flow break the surface creating waves of water. If you have a fountain, waterfall, spillover or similar water feature, turn it on.
As described in Lower Total Alkalinity, you add acid to lower the pH down to around 7.0 and when the pH goes up you add more acid. The more frequently you add acid, such as when the pH gets to 7.2 or so, the faster the process will go, but it's not a problem if you have it go higher before adding acid again. Basically, you are just speeding up a natural process that would occur anyway, but getting it over with more quickly so that going forward the pH will be more stable. As you add acid, the TA will drop. When it gets to 70 ppm or so, you can stop adding acid and just aerate to get the pH back up though with an SWG you could probably just start using the pool since the pH may still go up anyway, albeit more slowly.
Once you are happy with the slower rate of pH rise and the smaller amount of acid needed to lower the pH, then you might consider adding 50 ppm Borates to the pool. You can find more info in Water Balance for SWGs.
As described in Lower Total Alkalinity, you add acid to lower the pH down to around 7.0 and when the pH goes up you add more acid. The more frequently you add acid, such as when the pH gets to 7.2 or so, the faster the process will go, but it's not a problem if you have it go higher before adding acid again. Basically, you are just speeding up a natural process that would occur anyway, but getting it over with more quickly so that going forward the pH will be more stable. As you add acid, the TA will drop. When it gets to 70 ppm or so, you can stop adding acid and just aerate to get the pH back up though with an SWG you could probably just start using the pool since the pH may still go up anyway, albeit more slowly.
Once you are happy with the slower rate of pH rise and the smaller amount of acid needed to lower the pH, then you might consider adding 50 ppm Borates to the pool. You can find more info in Water Balance for SWGs.
FC is normal; how much depends on the water supplier. There is no CYA in tap water.
Some tap water has FC, but other tap water has CC which is monochoramine. The maximum amounts allowed by the EPA for these are 4 ppm, but usually the amount seen is around 1 ppm or so. Some water districts are moving from chlorine to monochloramine as the residual sanitizer in their water distribution systems since it forms fewer disinfection by-products and persists longer.
There is never any Cyanuric Acid in municipal water supplies, but there might be some in rare wells getting ground water near crop areas using a lot of triazine-based chemicals, though I'd expect the amount to be low and might not be measurable. Usually, soil bacteria will break down CYA into ammonia and carbon dioxide or bicarbonate.
There is never any Cyanuric Acid in municipal water supplies, but there might be some in rare wells getting ground water near crop areas using a lot of triazine-based chemicals, though I'd expect the amount to be low and might not be measurable. Usually, soil bacteria will break down CYA into ammonia and carbon dioxide or bicarbonate.
Finally, after weeks and several gallons of acid, I've been able to get my Alkalinity down from 300 to 100, with my PH at 7.4, so all looks good now. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and information.