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Thread: Wife talking me from AG to IG

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    Wife talking me from AG to IG

    Newer to the forum and started out here with a post asking about an AG pool. After some extensive research and finding out that the taxes on the wrap around wood deck for an 27 foot AG pool would be more than for an IG pool coupled with a bunch of other factors have been swayed to an IG steel vinyl liner pool.

    I am caught between a 16x32 and 18x36 both with an 8 foot hopper for small dive board. Any insight on the pros and cons to the amount of shallow versus deep end either of these sizes will permit? I definitely want the deep end. My kids (5 and 7) are already swimming to the bottom of a similar pool and doing flips into it as well. But I also view them wanting to do the volleyball/hoops games as too. I know I’ve heard the saying that no one wished they got a smaller pool.

    I am between two PB in my area as they are all basically the same with barely any noticeable cost differences between them (considering the overall cost). So I am now at the point where there might be other differences in what they are actually offering so that is part of my questions.

    I am in Western Pennsylvania, so I know that matters for the 3-4 months of pool climate as well as soil. I know I will have some clay and potential rock to deal with when they dig/set.

    The recommendation for filter is a Hayward 4820 DE 1hp filter. I’ve asked about 1 ½ HP and even 2 speed like other forum posts have recommended. The PB has indicated to me that 1 ½ would be for 20x40 and they said a 2 speed would burn out. They indicated this would be a 220 line and would be using Schedule 40 2 inch pipe.

    Will a DE filter and gas heater be louder than an outside air conditioner? It will be more convenient to install these on the side of the house more exposed to view. Should I push for this to be on the other side of the house although will raise my install cost?

    My backyard slopes down away from the house. If I put the filter on the side it will effectively be higher than the pool. To what issue should I be concerned? From the foundation to a couple of feet passed where concrete wrap will be on the far end of the pool the slope of the yard drops about 3 feet (but only 2 feet from where the pool would start to where it would end). Any concern there from using the fill they will excavate for the pool to level out a pad around the pool? How about for setting the posts for the fence since effectively all of that will be new fill at least on the far end away from the house?

    I am leaning towards a gas heater vs heat pump. Other forum posts recommend a 400K BTU unit. I may not go that high but I recall in the forum post something changes in the gas installation once you go with or above 250K BTU. Any information on that would be helpful so I can ensure that I could go higher years later.

    Recommendation is a 20 mil Merlin liner. Any thoughts there? Any reason to push for a 28 mil?

    They will be installing 8x4 foot steps for the shallow end. These are Performance STEPS. Any steps that are better/worse than others?

    As for the pool, I know all kits the PB can get will not be the same. Any buzzword for pro or con I should be aware of besides galvanized and them using pool crete for the bottom? Is there a type of coping better or worse? Is there a thickness of steel that would be better than others?

    They indicated they would backfill the pool around the walls with the dirt they excavate. Is that common practice or should they be using gravel for the back fill?

    Future Signature....
    IG 16x32 or 18x36 Steel Vinyl Liner
    Hayward 4820 DE filter
    Hayward 250K gas heater
    Western Pennsylvania
    PB scheduled for June 2011...
    18 x 36 Steel Wall Vinyl 23K gallon (8 foot hopper), Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward 1HP Super Pump, Hayward 250K BTU NG heater.
    Western Pennsylvania

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    duraleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Sebring, Florida

    Re: Wife talking me from AG to IG

    Hey, Billy,

    Good Morning! Welcome to the forum I think you should break out your issues by first making a firm decision on the pool size and then let the other questions and answers flow from that.

    You will have little room to play volleyball even on an 18 x 36 with a deep end hopper. Look at the profile on those pools and see if you can live with the "standing" room you will have.

    Once the size and usage issue is put to rest, some of the other questions will become easier to answer. We'll help along the way.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Houston, Texas

    Re: Wife talking me from AG to IG

    Hi, Welcome to TFP and best of luck on the new pool build. If you are trying to decide between 2 builders and they are offering almost the same thing, ask for some references and try to look at any similar pools they have built. Check them out with the local Better Business Bureau to see if they are a member and how they have handled any disputes with customers.

    Ask to see a cutaway scale drawing of the side elevation of the pool to show how much space the transition from deep to shallow uses. You may also want to check out a sport pool design, where the deepest section is in the middle of the pool with shallower ends on either side. They will also use a diving/jumping rock instead of a diving board. It does not have spring action like a board and can add a nice visual touch as well.

    Don't worry about the equipment pad being higher than the pool surface. In ground pumps are self priming and you don't want the equipment pad to be in a low spot that is subject to collecting run off when it rains.

    A 1 hp pump is more than enough for the size of your pool. You will save money with a 2 speed pump run on low speed for filtering and high for vacuuming. I don't understand the comment about a 2 speed burning out. I have never heard of that being an issue before, however if they are arbitrarily wiring the pumps for 220 that could be an issue since pumps come in both 110 and 220.

    The filter itself doesn't make noise, and a 2 speed pump on low speed is very quiet. I don't think a heater would be very noisy either.

    I will let one of the building pros comment on your structural questions. I hope my input has been helpful.
    TFP Moderator
    Helpful links: TF Test Kits,TFP Pool School, PoolMath
    Vogue 21' round AG, Pentair 1 hp 2 speed pump, 36 sq ft DE filter, Hayward S180T 150# sand filter, Houston, Texas
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    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Silver Spring, MD

    Re: Wife talking me from AG to IG

    Adults diving in an 18x36 with extended deep end is cramped at best. I have trouble imagining diving in a 16x32 at all. Diving has some serious risks and needs space or you hit bottom on the slope to the shallow end. If you are really serious about both diving and volleyball you need a larger pool. Otherwise it is best to pick one or then other as your primary focus.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Melt In The Sun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Tucson, AZ

    Re: Wife talking me from AG to IG

    I have no idea if it fits in your budget, but if I were building a pool and had the space I would do one of the "L" shaped pools; that would give you a big flat area for volleyball and a nice big deep end.
    11,200 gal, Pebble-Tec; Tristar 2-speed 1hp - Swimclear 325 ft2 cart - SWG - A & A in-floor cleaner - Heat pump. For the poolside cooking, a Yoder Wichita and a Big Steel Keg!
    TF Test Kits -- PoolMath -- Pool School
    Make each day your masterpiece. - John Wooden

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    Re: Wife talking me from AG to IG

    Thanks for all of the responses. Going from 16x32 to 18x36 isn't really that much more up front cost although there are obviously larger water, maitenance, and even taxes over time. Thus, I am assuming 18x36 unless something causes that to toally unravel. I know this is splitting hairs but as per the diving, it will certainly be used more for cannoballs and flips than perfect form dives. I also understand I can't have everything between the deep end and the volleyball stuff. I have a big enough yard that a stand up volley ball net could be used for such purpose to which the kids can take a dip to cool off. So while I want as much shallow as possible I forsee the kids being in the deep end most of the time. They are already there now and they are 7 so I can only imagaine that being more over time? If I wrap two noodles around me I can basically float/stand anywhere. Thanks for the suggestion of an L shape pool. If budget could do it I would but that puts me way over budget.

    I might have found a difference between the PB that I'd like some clarification on.

    One of my top concerns which both PB don't seem too alarmed about is the grade of my back yard. It slopes away from my house. If you count the 40+ feet I plan on fencing in from my back slider to where the pool fence will end it drops quite significant in my mind. Below is a twine line level quick test (not exact in any measure) I did.

    4ft 0”
    11ft 2”
    22ft 10”
    32ft 16”
    38.5ft 23”
    45.5ft 30”
    53ft 44”

    I would be starting the pool concrete wrap at about 16 feet away or lets aproximate the 7" level. Add 18 feet for the pool 8 ft and 4 ft for concrete wrap and that puts me at the 46 foot away from house or 30". So while that drops 30" from the house and would require my fence to have a down angle at some point (since wrapping 3 sides to connect to house like a U) it makes 30 - 7 or a two foot drop for the pool and wrap. Any major concern there with the far end away from the house needing to use the excavated dirt to fill in and raise up the far end? If not clear the pool would run the width of the house.

    When I mentioned this to one PB they did not seem concerned and said I would have fill left over. The other pool builder mentioned using gravel for the back fill around the pool. They also mentioned that every four feet they would stick what I would best describe as tubing similar to what you would use for a french drain or maybe even ridgid PVC on end and then they would fill it with cement so you would have some what I describe as support pillars to help with the settling issues I fear. This same PB said as they built up the area around the pool they would go over the dirt with some type of machine to help compact it. So my math then shows that the fence I need to put around the pool at least on the one end would now be posted into dirt that is built up new and the 30 inch I would auger for the fence post would be new dirt. Any concern there?

    At what point/slope should I be required to have a retaining wall?

    One PB def says they will use wall foam and something they will spray onto the steel walls plus pool crete the bottom and other areas. I have seen a number of posts that promote the wall foam (at least for above ground when I was looking). How hard should I push for wall foam for in ground? It looks relatively inexpensive.

    One PB says they will back fill with the dirt they excavate while the other agrees with this but is viewing using gravel as an option I just would have to pay straight up for the load or two necessary. In the discussion I believe I heard them say this would be 95% compacted and that is important to me because of my concern of the grade in my back yard.

    One PB says they will use Schedule 40 through the concrete pad where the pump/filter will be and then they will use some type of flexible piping the rest of the way. I was able to touch a piece of it and it looks just like normal PVC but it can bend albeit would have taken me both arms and some force to get it to go anywhere. I would assume this type of more flexible tubing/piping would be better than strict 90 degree and 45 degree fittings that would be prone to issues with settling and damage over time. Oh this PB said they will use rigid piping through the pump pad because if they used flexible the entire way they said it would wear out in 5 years.

    One of the PB is recommending an aquador to cover for winter where the other talks about blowing air through the piping system and even putting anti freeze in for the winter.

    I eventually will want a super auto cleaner in the future but will likely wait a year for that due to cost. Anything to consider there to ensure that will work in the future. One recommendation was the two speed pump/filter to run low during normal use and high during vacuum.

    Thank you so much for helping me out!

    Considering IG 18x36 8ft deep
    DE Hayward 1HP
    Western PA
    PB scheduled for June 2011...
    18 x 36 Steel Wall Vinyl 23K gallon (8 foot hopper), Hayward 4820 DE Filter, Hayward 1HP Super Pump, Hayward 250K BTU NG heater.
    Western Pennsylvania

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