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Thread: Hayward

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    Hayward

    I have moved this to Agree to Disagree, as it is getting close to inappropriate. JasonLion

    Quote Originally Posted by bk406
    My own feeling is, being just an owner and not a service guy, that a lot of guys dont like Hayward just like a lot of people dont like the red sox and yankees. It's popular, and they have a big market share. Keep in mind that if there are a thousand pool pumps in a service area, and 800 are haywards, the chances are the service guys are going to work on a Hayward more often than not simply because they are more abundent.
    It's not quite that simple. When you talk about Redsox and Yankees, love em or hate them they both provide a consistently good product.

    Hayward is small to almost non-existant in this market. I have experienced several pieces of their equipment, and almost all of them feel very cheap, and poorly engineered. I have never used a piece of their equiment where I said " wow, this is a really good product."

    Typically the only dealers I know that use hayward are volume dealers who get the equipment direct from hayward at a very low cost.

    I can't remember the last time they created a revolutionary product either.
    20X40 30,000 gallon gunite pool

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    Re: Jandy vs pentair

    Where are you located?

    Again, i'm just a pool owner and have no stake in the company what so ever, but I do get tired of the Hayward bashing on this site.
    If they sold such "junk", I'm not sure why it's so abundant. My filter works great, so does my multiport. I run my super II 3/4 HP pump 12 hours a day for 6 months straight for 3 years with no issue.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Hayward

    Hayward is easily one of the top three suppliers for in-ground residential pool equipment in the US. Their automation systems are the best automation systems available (give or take the lack of a good Internet connection feature). Their SWGs are right up there near the top of the pack. And their new EcoStar pump would be my first choice pump if it wasn't brand new this season.

    They have certainly had their share of problems in the past, but so have all of the other brands.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Hayward

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Their automation systems are the best automation systems available (give or take the lack of a good Internet connection feature).
    Jason, I agree that Hayward is part of the big three (sounds like the Auto Industry) But as far as automation, I would disagree. Is this your opinion? I have yet to see a residential pool that had Hayward automation out West. I see Jandy (Zodiac), Pentair, Compool, Innovative Pool Systems(Just saw this) and a handful of others... but no Hayward.

    I am not bashing, but if it was "The Best", there would be more out there.

    Just saying...

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    Re: Hayward

    Hey pool dudes

    In case you haven't noticed, pool builders - like most other folks, tend to be somewhat 'set in their ways'.

    It's like the NSPI, they stick with what they've said for dozens of years (and I still call them the NSPI ) The pool companies tend to just keep building the same pool(s) they have throughout their history, regardless as to whether there is another, possibly better, alternative

    I am, and have been through 4 companies in N.J., Va., N.H. and Conn a Hayward guy -- their equipment is what I know and am familiar with, therefor my bias for Hayward
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: Hayward

    salp, what would you suggest is better?

    I am basing my comments mostly on watching the kinds of problems people posting here report and reading through the manuals.

    We get repetitive questions here from people having problems understanding how to program their Pentair automation. See for example yesterdays Easytouch = confusing programming topic, or last months Sun touch controller problem, both featuring poor documentation and impossible to follow menu structures. The one good thing Pentair has is their Internet control.

    The Jandy AquaLink fairs better, the reports are at least mostly positive, but they are few and far between.

    The Hayward ProLogic is very popular and the vast majority of the questions are things like how do I connect my XYZ box to the ProLogic, rather than anything about the ProLogic unit it's self. Nearly everyone is happy with their Hayward units.

    Finally, no one can beat the price of the Hayward Aqua Plus automation and SWG in one for around $1,000.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Hayward

    I don't disagree here. Maybe instead of using they are the "best" automation, you could have said they are the most economical automation you could buy. I have a Jandy RS8, I have had no issues what so ever and I find it pretty simple to operate. I run landscape lighting and a variety of water features. Not sure it's "the best". It's kinda like a CRM application, you are never going to make everyone happy all of the time...

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    Re: Hayward

    It's not quite that simple. When you talk about Redsox and Yankees, love em or hate them they both provide a consistently good product.
    Millions of homeowners and hundreds of service companies and pool builders would agree that Hayward provides a consistently good product. All mfgrs have had their issues over the years and I'm sure Hayward is no exception. I've found their committment to bringing good product to the market and their support of their product is 2nd to none.

    Hayward is small to almost non-existant in this market. I have experienced several pieces of their equipment, and almost all of them feel very cheap, and poorly engineered. I have never used a piece of their equiment where I said " wow, this is a really good product."
    What market are you in? If you don't use Hayward equipment then it's not hard to bellieve this statement. I find that I have a tendency towards that opinion when I don't know much about a particular product. I didn't care for Hayward much until I started working with it more. Now, I find that Hayward product is at least equal to, and in some cases superior to, other brands - although they are all proven products.

    Typically the only dealers I know that use hayward are volume dealers who get the equipment direct from hayward at a very low cost.
    There are mainly two national brand pool builders - Blue Haven and Anthony & Sylvan. Blue Haven uses Hayward, Anthony & Sylvan uses Pentair. Would your statement apply equally to volume dealers who use Jandy or Pentair?

    I can't remember the last time they created a revolutionary product either.
    Hayward has actually revolutionized the industry in several areas. If you have/use plastic pumps, filters, valves, etc., you can thank Hayward for that. They were the first manufacturer to really push to get metal out of the water path. Hayward made the first plastic multiport valve & has led the industry in plastics molding for decades. Plastic valves, unions, etc., were introduced to our industry by Hayward. The heat exchanger design introduced by Hayward is being copied by other manufacturers, so there might be something there. I think that Hayward was the first to use polymer headers on the heaters rather than bronze/cast iron, and the first to eliminate the need for a rear header. These are only the ones I know of personally. If you look at Jandy's history - from a manufacturer of RayVac and Jandy Valve only, to their current line of products - perhaps they copied someone...? Several mfgrs have purchased Hayward multiport valves to be included on their filters - high praise.

    As with any product, there will be some people who love it and some who don't. From my experience, all mfgrs have people on both side of this fence - read this forum for proof of that. All mfgrs seem to copy each other at some point. This is no different than other industries. Someone has a good idea & the entire industry benefits from it. I guess my main point is to understand that if it weren't a good product, it wouldn't be on the market. Personal preferences affect us all, but we should understand that for what it is.
    APSP CST Certified
    17k inground concrete; 1.5hp 2 speed Tristar pump, 300sq.ft. Cartridge filter, AquaLogic PS-4 w/ Tcell-15, Navigator suction cleaner.

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    Re: Hayward

    Ahh,
    Hayward bashing, or not.
    I don't and have never installed hayward pumps, filters and heaters. So my only personal experience these is when I do remodels and what I see, and Hear.
    I can usually tell a hayward pump from two houses over. Why is that.

    I have however used the automation, SWG, and vac cleaners.
    First the navigator has gone hugely down hill the last couple of years, parts are getting more expensive, and don't last as long. As far as I am concerned is a ***.
    I started using Goldline controls long before Hayward bought them, and have noticed a huge difference in problems since.
    Over all I like the Aqualogic system. It is very easy to use, you can macro everything, and best of all you can actually run Solar, Heatpump, and gas heat at the same time, each with a different temp ect. Why cant the others catch on to this. But when I see things like the solder joint that melts out and causes the need for a whole new board. They know this is a weak point, or defect, but wont cover it. Thats bull. I have see 20 of these, and there is even a website dedicated to it. Next the huge inconsistencies of their salt cell coatings. (maybe they have corrected this by now) Some are way over coated, so it thinks you have way more salt then you have, and some are undercoated, so they die quick. Had one that was way over coated, and they (hayward) said that is ok, it will just last longer. Dont worry about the salt reading being way off.
    Maybe this is just a local thing, but their warranty service is horrible. (would think Phoenix would be a good market for them). They will do everything they can to blame anything else. It is never the products fault. I have walked up minutes after a tech left saying the cell is dirty, only to inspect it myself, and it is perfect. Their prorated (read the fine print) warranties are a joke. It actually costs more to use the warranty then to buy a new one. Then they don't even cover labor after the first year. Trust me I am so done with their garbage.

    We get repetitive questions here from people having problems understanding how to program their Pentair automation. See for example yesterdays Easytouch = confusing programming topic, or last months Sun touch controller problem, both featuring poor documentation and impossible to follow menu structures. The one good thing Pentair has is their Internet control.
    Not everyone should be programming these things. How many VCR's used to have the time flashing. How many people cant set up some of the simplest things on their own computers. Well this is a complex computer.
    Listen, I don't love the easytouch. I love the Intellitouch. You can do just about anything with that. (except run multiple controlled heat sources)
    I can put together 10 pump systems that have simple one button pushes, all on the front screen of the unit. Customers love them.
    Jandy's new screen is better then the scrollllllllllllll system. That drove me and my customers nuts.
    When you pair an easytouch and a Intelliflo, you have so much you can do with the two. Now you can set it up very basically, but if you want to squeeze all of your energy saving out of it, as well as the joy of different jet speeds, waterfall speeds ect, you have to do some intricate programming.
    Biggest problem is people are not patient these days, and don't want to read anything. They just jump to the end, or use the quick guide to do a quick set up, and miss all of the good stuff.
    Yes we can agree to disagree. I will keep my Pentair, and bury (recycle for you greenies) as many Hayward products as I can find.
    Which reminds me, I still have to go find my missing "group" function that disappeared.

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    Re: Hayward

    I dislike Hayward products. I think their Northstar pumps are ****... I don't like their products as they are made cheaper, with cheaper materials, don't last, etc. I'm a Pentair guy all the way. Easy Touch, Intellitouch, Intellichlor, WhisperFlo, IntelliFlo etc.

    EDIT: Oh and i have the most problems with Goldline Salt Systems, more than any Jandy AquaPure or Intellichlor system.

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    Re: Hayward

    (Pool guy here)

    HAYWARD

    The only decent thing they make is their salt systems.

    I hate when their o-rings stretch when I'm trying to put on the lid of their chlorinator or cartridge filter. Every customer looks at me like I'm an ****** when I tell them that a replacement o-ring for a chlorinator is $15.

    I hate when I'm trying to take off the lid of their starclear cartridge filter (I think thats what its called. The C-1200 and C1750) and the whole rod comes up with the filter lid.

    I hate when I lose prime on a Northstar and it takes forever to get it started again. Don't even get me started on replacing a motor on a Northstar...

    I feel like I'm gonna blow out a hemorrhoid every time I have to close/open a hayward valve in one of my commercial pools .

    The bouyency of their skimmer baskets drives me crazy. I put a rock in the basket most of the time. Some customers take the rock out thinking its trash and then I go to their pool and the basket is floating around upside down in the skimmer . If the customer has kids their is a 100% chance that the skimmer weir is broken or missing.

    OK, I think I'm done ranting for now. Long live Pentair (except for the whisperflow pump housing gasket. seriously, who thought of making them in that shape??)!!

    EDIT: I forgot about the Navigator. Why so many breakable parts!?!? The wings usually break first. Then the feet springs. Then the internal turbine. Why the heck do I have to purchase an entire lower assembly because its missing a couple feet springs? "those rubber shoes cost how much??"

    Florida Pool Service Guy
    15k Kidney Diamond Brite
    Hayward C-1200 Cartridge Filter
    Sta-Rite Dura-Glass 1.5hp Pump
    Pentair Rainbow 320 Chlorinator
    Heliocol Solar Panels

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    Re: Hayward

    I'm not in the industry or an expert on....much...lol

    But...my pump is a Hayward Tri-Star and I've had 4 trouble free seasons (in season 5 now). The only thing I've had to do was replace the lid gasket this season. And, prior to me building a shed over the equipment this year, it's sat outside in the sun, wind, rain and snow for the past 4 years as well.

    As weird as this may sound, I like the looks of the Tri-Star better than some of the other pumps out there.
    16x28 Roman, 55000 litres, salt water, Zodiac Duoclear 130 (mineral cartridge removed!!!), inground, vinyl liner
    Hayward Tri-star VS900 (1.85 HP) pump, Hayward C3030 cartridge filter
    Nine Techno Solis 4x10 solar panels, Jandy LX 250 natural gas heater
    Jandy Aqualink PDA with Sub Panel Power Centre

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    Re: Hayward

    Just a Quick comment,

    Hayward Bought Goldline, to me that is not a Hayward product. The Goldline salt system is simply the best. When Hayward gets around to screwing with the Goldline Line of products , i will not buy that either , I don't care what any one says Hayward is the "el Cheepo" way to go....

    The main reason for My Bias is , They are the mainstay of Leslies. Leslies consistently Hammers away at the small pool companies. Sells people only what they feel makes them money.... IE selling 380 Polaris .... when 280 is clearly a better cleaner --- but it does not eat up parts like the 380.... so they push them all the time ... to the point of not even having 280's in stock so they ,must be ordered.

    Hayward will flood a market with "free labor installs" -- that is how you get so much Hayward equipment out there.... as an installer there is not much price difference now for me from Pentair to Hayward.

    As far as Pentair being hard to program .... if you are an installer you should have a 520500 ( screen logic 2 interface) you can program all things much easier with that. then you you leave the system is just as easy to use as a pro logic , or any Jandy system....

    Pentair's controls are so far ahead of what else is out there, if you are not installing Pentair Automation you are cheating your customers... when you show a customer the I Phone interface -- it sells itself

    good luck all

    G
    CHANGES AREN'T PERMANENT, BUT CHANGE IS--- Rush-- Tom Sawyer

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    Re: Hayward

    Welcome to TFP, Gandalf ("of all colors") !!

    You make an interesting point that Leslies is a (the) 'big box' carrier of their products.

    When you're dealing with a big manufacturer who sells their products to a national 'chain' or 'box' store, the manufacturer takes 'shortcuts' on QC or on the component parts. I believe this is done to enable the manufacturer to meet the high demand and the products are sold to the chain for far less than their usual price (it's a different sort of 'economy of scale' than I was taught - but it's done ).

    (If you want we can talk about the quality and durability of power tools and electronics sold at W*lm*rt and L*w*es v.s. what you'd get at the local "Mom & Pop' hardware store or candles bought from a national chain v.s. those bought from a smaller store & if you want, we can discuss how it harms the manufacturer's name to have '2nd quality' products going out to so many consumers)

    I still like Hayward, owing to my years of experience with their products
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: Hayward

    thanks Waste,

    For me i think its more Personal. I see the Poor Installs done by Leslies , along with so many other problems --I just choose to make my "recall" life easy.

    we can go on and on about quality tools and such , but that is not the same as Leslies VS Pentair or "the Field".

    Lets take the Northstar Example, this pump ( non Variable) needs 2.5 inch Plumbing through out to work properly , I watched for years as Leslies Blindly makes a work order in store , with out site inspection , and installs a 2HP northstar with 1.5 inch copper and black bottom skimmer ......then customer calls and wonders why the system does not run like it used to and they never had problems before... ...then you have to explain to them they were over sold a pump , when they had an old east side medium head pump that worked great for 30 years.. .... then Leslies does not have a Qualified tech come out and diagnose the problem... i have seen this 100's of times in 25 years -- and i am one of many who has seen the same

    Hayward and Leslies go hand in hand... no two ways about it..... It goes so far for me as to boycott brands that let Leslies slap a Leslies sticker on the traitor brands product ... a prime example of that is Raypak.... i used to love their heaters ... then they (RAYPAK) threw the little guys under the bus when started allowing Leslies to slap a leslies sticker on the RP2100 driving down the retail cost of the heater along with free installs ... it just goes on and on for me ....

    Sorry to Vent but Hayward / Leslies causes me to get angry.....
    CHANGES AREN'T PERMANENT, BUT CHANGE IS--- Rush-- Tom Sawyer

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    Re: Hayward

    Thanks for the reply

    Venting and being able to go 'abroad' of the topic is why this area exists. The powers that be don't want us doing it in the other areas of the site (I'm saying this because you are new here and I don't want you to think that it's acceptable in the regular question answering areas )

    I can certainly understand your justifiable 'disdain' of Hayward and their associates (per se. Leslie's). It seems to me that it's Leslie's, and their 1/2 arsed products and procedures, that caused this. While Hayward was a 'knowing' participant of this, I maintain that some of their products are very good and that, as pool professionals, we should provide our customers with the best product we can, given their budgets.

    I can see that you truly care about pools and your customers. THAT is the Hallmark of being a 'pool dude' (IMO)
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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