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Thread: Electrical for new pool

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    Electrical for new pool

    I need to have electrical ready for the pool guys who are going to begin digging soon. (inground vinyl pool). I am pretty handly, but I can not claim to be an electrical expert. this seems to me like it should be simple though.

    The pool is going to have a 1 hp pump and a SWG. I have a 20 amp exterior GFI protected outlet about 30 feet from where the pump will go.

    Is it as easy as replacing the outlet with a junction box, running romex through aluminum flex conduit 30 feet to another box with pig tails inside for the pump? Can I just extend the existing wiring with the romex? I have 12 gage romex in aluminum flex conduit ready to go, but I want to make sure it is as simple as this. This will be dedicated for the pump only on it's own circuit..

    Thanks for any help.

    Dan
    11000 gal IG pool, pebbletec surface, Cartridge filter, In Floor cleaner

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Wiring for a pool can be pretty complicated, even for an electrician. In a nut shell, what you are proposing will not be sufficient. First, a 1 HP pump needs to be wired up to 240 VAC, not 120. Also, by code an outlet, called a convience outlet, needs to be not less than 10 feet nor more than 20 feet from the pool. That really needs to be on a second circuit. Yiou will also need to hook the SWCG up to an electrical source and i'm sure you will want osme sort of timer for the pump.
    Another consideration is the bonding for the pool. That can be a difficult concept even for an electrician. I'm also assumng you need permits for the pool installation as well. Normally that comes with an electrical inspection as well. Depending on your jurisdiction, you may or may not be able to DYI. Normally wiring a new in ground pool is not a DYI job. While it can be done, there are a LOT of considerations that go into it.
    Normally for sometihng like this, you really need a subpanel near the pool equipment to supply electricity to the pool equipment. Does you pool builder not sub out the electrical work? Usually, thats all worked out in the price for the pool as well.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    No, it's not that simple. Most electricians don't know how to do it correctly.

    You absolutely want a light for safety, because a pool is a big dark hole at night. It requires its own wire with no splices in the ground from the panel.

    There are codes for how deep the conduit has to be, and code requiring outlets in the area of the pool. You are required to have a shutoff in sight of the pool as well.

    Then you get into bonding, which is an effort in itself. Read NEC 680.26 for information on the requirements. You have to electrically bond the rebar in the deck, the panels making up the pool walls, ladders, dive stands, metal fencing, your pump, your light housing, SWCG, hand rails, heaters and several other things.

    IMO, this is a DIY project only for people with significant electrical experience.

    bk406, posted while I was typing, but I'll post mine as well, if just for emphasis.
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    All I am doing is providing electrical for the builder to wire everything into. The existing outlet is about 15 feet from the pool, but the pump will go on the other end of the pool and will be about 15 feet from the pool as well. This is a fairly compact space with no long distances at all. Since I have a dedicated circuit very near where I need it to be, what is the simplest way to get it where I need it?

    According to the builder the pump is NOT 240 but 120. I have the yard well lit, and there will be no pool light in the pool itself. Lighting is not being touched and is sufficient.

    Again, All I want to do is move the 115 supply about 30 feet so the builder can do the rest.

    Dan
    11000 gal IG pool, pebbletec surface, Cartridge filter, In Floor cleaner

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    This is not going to be sufficient. I cant tell you enough how wrong this is. You must follow NEC article 680 for wiring a pool, period. And, 120 volts for a 1 HP pump is not sufficient. That pump should be wired up using 240. At 120 volts, the motor will get too hot. While yes, you can wire a pump 120, that pump should be on 240. The builder should know this.
    Where will you get your power for the convenince outlet that is required by code? How about power for the SWCG? A 20 amp, 120 volt line to run an entire pool is not sufficient.

    If you run wire from your existing outlet, you need to run 4 separates conductors in buried conduit. You can not run romex in underground conduit as romex is not approved for wet locations. Is your existing 20 amp plug the only plug on the circuit?

    Who is going to bond the pool?
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Quote Originally Posted by dpoelstra
    (inground vinyl pool). I am pretty handly, but I can not claim to be an electrical expert.

    Dan,

    This is one area where having an experienced eletrican tackle the job and ensure the saftey of your family is money well spent. The saftey aspect is #1, especially ensuring the pool is properly bonded and safe. Second, failing electrical inspection and possibly delaying the pool build in the process is just not worth it, IMO.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    got it. Ok, got some work to do...

    BTW...not going to bury the conduit. it is going to run along an ext. wall...

    Thanks for the help.
    11000 gal IG pool, pebbletec surface, Cartridge filter, In Floor cleaner

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Even conduit run above ground is still considered a wet location so you still can't use romex.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    bk406, not sure where you are getting your information, but 120v for a 1 hp motor is perfectly sufficient and it will not cause it to run hot. The NEC makes no mention of a required voltage for the pump. A watt is a watt. Whether it is derived from a 120v or 240v circuit makes no difference. The load (amps) is the only thing that changes so as long as the circuit and wire is the right size it doesn't matter. The main advantage in using 240v is for a larger load so you can reduce the wire size because the load decreases with a higher voltage.

    dpoelstra, to answer your question, yes you can make the existing box a junction and extend it down the wall. The romex can be used but the AL flex conduit is not weather tight so you cannot use that. You can, however, put the romex in a rigid PVC, EMT conduit (with compression fittings). This is all assuming this is a dedicated circuit. It will also either need a GFCI breaker or the pump will need a cord and plug and you can then use a GFCI receptacle.

    In addition, you need to have another GFCI protected circuit between 6 & 20 feet from the pool.

    This is all in NEC code section 680 mentioned by another commenter above.

    Since you are not installing a light it simplifies the process and the bonding is not all that complicated. Your local codes may vary somewhat but my areas interpretation of the NEC is that you need a continuous #8 bare solid wire around the perimeter of the pool and extended to the pump. It needs to be bonded in 4 places on the pool, once to the rebar, and to each metal part of the pool (ladders, handrails, diving board bases, pump, etc). Drive a ground rod at the pump and connect the ground wire.
    17x36 vinyl IG 27.5k gal, 1.5 HP Mustang pump, 300# sand filter, Hayward SwimPure SWG, Polaris ATV auto cleaner, TF100 test kit

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    @woods780: No ground rod unless the nearest ground is more than a few hundred feet away. Multiple ground stakes make for a potential battery, that is the grounds may have differences in potential and a current can form.

    @dpoelstra: In addition to the bond wire, the conduit must be buried a certain depth controlled by local codes. The trench will need to be inspected, the conduit used, the wire size, on-off switch, etc.... will be inspected and also, no extension cords to the pump, it must be hard wired with weather proof connections. Get the electrician.

    Scott
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Woods;

    I never said the NEC required 240 VAC on a 1 HP pump. What I said was that you should use 240 VAC. While 120 will work, I wouldnt do it. A pump motor is a heavy duty motor that can run 24/7 and that needs 240 VAC, IMO.

    While there is no NEC article that SPECIFICALLY forbids romex in conduit, the material is not rated for wet locations. Any conduit, whether buried or above ground is considered a wet location, even the so called water tight flex. Therefore, no romex in conduit unless it's indoors and used as a protective raceway for not more than a few feet.
    Moreover, any pool pump must be wired using an insulated ground wire. Romex does not have the ground insulated, so that rules out romex even if you could run it in conduit.

    As far as the ground rod you mention. Bonding a pool is not grounding. You do not need a ground rod for bonding a pool, thats not what its for. It's to make sure there is no potential difference between metal parts around the pool.
    A second ground rod IS needed (besides the one on the house) under one circumstance. If there is a subpanel, outdoors, or even indoors, that's NOT mounted to or in the same structure with the main panel, then a second ground rod is required.
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Remember,this is an in ground vinyl lined pool, so no rebar. Does this effect bonding? The only metal in the pool is the ladder. I think the skimmer and return et.c are all plastic, but I am not 100% on that.

    I will get an electrician involved, but for my own knowledge, if Romex is not to be used,what is? Do I understand it clearly that the pump and SWG must be on separate circuits? Does the SWG circuit need to be dedicated?

    Typically, what is the amperage draw of a small SWG and a 1hp pump? This pool is only about 7 to 8k gallons (14x20 at 4ft constant depth).

    Dan
    11000 gal IG pool, pebbletec surface, Cartridge filter, In Floor cleaner

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    > amperage draw of a small SWG and a 1hp pump?

    amps = watts / voltage so assuming 1000 w and 240 volts = ~ 4 amps

    small SWCG could mean just about anything but if you can measure with a volt meter the transformer draw, just use above formula. my IC40 is controlled by a Current Control Relay (Macromatic COKP01A22) with a Time Delay Pickup / Dropout and it switches on depending on the amount of current drawn by the IntelliFlow VF. It is dialed currently to turn on at 2 amps and turns off the IC40 at 1 amp (when the IntelliFlow VF is slowing down or shutting off).

    Depending on the mode of operation (PCT of chlorine generation), the unit can draw 1-6 amps.

    from the IC40 manual
    Input: 90-130 VAC, 50/60 Hz, 220 Watts (2 AMP) or 220-240 VAC, 50/60 Hz, 220
    Watts (1 AMP).
    Output: 22-39 VDC @ 6 AMPS maximum from the Power Center.

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Quote Originally Posted by dpoelstra
    Remember,this is an in ground vinyl lined pool, so no rebar. Does this effect bonding? The only metal in the pool is the ladder. I think the skimmer and return et.c are all plastic, but I am not 100% on that.
    The rebar mentioned here is any rebar used in the construction of the pool deck, not necesserily in the pool itself. It doesnt matter if the metal is in the pool or not. Any metal items in and around the pool have to be connected to the bonding wire. This includes the anchor fittings of the ladder, and the anchors for the hand rail. Also, the pool pump, SWCG, any heater, pool light, etc MUST be attached to the bonding wire (bare # 8 copper wire.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpoelstra
    I will get an electrician involved, but for my own knowledge, if Romex is not to be used,what is? Do I understand it clearly that the pump and SWG must be on separate circuits? Does the SWG circuit need to be dedicated?
    Wire should be THHN/THWN single conductor wire. It's that stuff you see at Home Depot on some of the roles on that big thing that rotates and holds all those spools of wire. You can get it in several different guage sizes and it's usually stranded but depending on the size, you can get it solid.
    The SWG can be put on the same circuit as the pump. Most can be run on either 240 or 120 volts. Normally a swg power supply is hooked up to the load side of the timer. That way its only powered when the pump is running. You can hook it up to a dedicted circuit, but not needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpoelstra
    Typically, what is the amperage draw of a small SWG and a 1hp pump? This pool is only about 7 to 8k gallons (14x20 at 4ft constant depth).
    Gallon size of the pool makes no difference with respect to power draw. A typical SWCG will pull about 1 amp at 240 VAC an 2 amps at 120 VAC.
    A 1 HP pump, should pull 7-10 amps at 120 VAC. Some of it depends on how hard the pump has to work to pull the water (i.e. distance). Since it pulls 10 amps or less, thats why you can run them on 120 VAC using a 20 amp breaker. But, depending on how far your power is from the pump, the voltage drop incurred may cause the pump to pull more current. If that happens, you would need bigger wire and a bigger breaker (i.e. 10 AWG wire and a 30 amp breaker). As I said in previous posts, while its ok to run a 1 HP pump motor on 120, my preference would be 240. It uses the same amount of power, but I think any motor like that with the heavy use it gets 240 is prefered, IMO.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    The pump circuit must be dedicated with a GFCI outlet or breaker. The SWG can run off the convenience outlet and does not have to be dedicated. The pool frame (usually metal) ladder and decking must be bonded. More and more municipalities these days are also requiring your water to be bonded (yes, water). Your local town electrical inspector may be able to share the specific requirements with you as well. contrary to popular belief, inspectors are in place to ensure your saftey and will gladly assist you in clarifying requirements if you ask politely


    I see BK posted before me...which is good, he is much more familiar with electrical than me
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Quote Originally Posted by dpoelstra
    Remember,this is an in ground vinyl lined pool, so no rebar. Does this effect bonding? The only metal in the pool is the ladder. I think the skimmer and return et.c are all plastic, but I am not 100% on that.
    What about the deck? Wet concrete is a conductor and has to be bonded. Rebar or copper mesh is about the only option there. Your equipotential bonding must extend beyond the pool per 680.26.


    I'd also encourage you to consider a light. If a child should fall in the pool at night, the time it might take to find them with a flashlight vs. a pool light could be critical. The reflections at the surface make it difficult to see into the water with conventional lighting.
    TFP Moderator
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Quote Originally Posted by dmanb2b
    The pump circuit must be dedicated with a GFCI outlet or breaker.
    This is true only if the pump is plugged into a receptacle. If the pump is hard wired then the GFCI is not required by NEC code. Some individual jurisdictions require it (above and beyond what NEC says). Mine requires a GFCI breaker on a hard wired pump, but others dont.
    NEC is a guidline, not law, although most jurisdictions follow it.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    dmanb2b's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    See...learn something new every day
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    For what its' worth......here's how they wired my AGP steel wall which is buried 2 feet. Work was done by certified electrician--not the pool installer-----and city inspected. Dedicated circuit breaker...........romex run through metal conduit attached 1 foot above ground where house siding meets the brick. Run directly to a mechanical timer and down to a 2 plug GFIC. Pool is surrounded by #8 copper wire under ground and attached to each metal brace/strut with a bonding lug. Wire is then run to a ground pole about 4 feet deep! Wire then run to grounding lug on the pump. Pump is 1.5 hp with standard 120 receptacle plug and plugged into GFIC. Electrical and pump pad are 10 feet from the pool.
    Your mileage may vary by location.
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    Re: Electrical for new pool

    Sounds ok. I still have issue with romex in conduit. While the rod driven 4 feet into the ground might not hurt anything, its really not needed for proper bonding of the pool, however. Even some electrical inspectors dont get pool bonding, believe it or not.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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